Gay marriage ban overturned.
Think this is a good idea? you are an idiot.
Not that gay marriage is a good idea, or a bad idea, but that justices should rule against the will of the people. Those justices should be executed in public. If you missed that little point, go check it out now, and come back when you;re not an idiot.
When this blog was young, a billion and a half years ago, I had this discussion wiht Spoons. He was adamant, I was wrong and he was right, because he didn’t feel his marriage was threatened by gays being married. he was, of course, wrong. And I was young to blogging, so i backed down-but this time I will not back down, because I know I’m correct.
let’s start by looking at the discussion. The issue in question is the term “Marriage”.
I don’t thing any human being in their right mind would deny any two people the right to be happy and live their lives. Certainly, I do not. The idea of “civil unions” is perfectly straightforward, and makes perfect sense, for same sex AND different sex peoples. Two old people living together in a small home, even if no sex or anything like that is involved, should have the right to civil unionship,and all the priveleges and safeties it implies. And for that reason alone, Civil unions should be recognized everywhere.
So why not marriage? Why not allow gays to marry?
Let’s look at marriage. Marriage is, at it’s core, a religious entity, and until a clear and well defined separation existed between church and state, there was no reason for Marriage to be thought of as anything but a religious rite, and is considered a sacrament in most Christian faiths.
When secularism became popular enough that there was a clear need for the non religious to pair bond, the State endowed itself with the authority to marry.
This is the beginning of the bullshit, right there.
Because Civil marriage and religious marriage hold the same legal weight, they have become indistinguishable to most people. Except people of faith.
people of faith understand that the male/female pair bond, whose primary (but not sole) purpose is procreation, is at the core of our society. It is not the word we object to being misused, but the concept. You can call the relationship between a man and a man a ‘marriage”, but in the true sense of the word, it will never be, because the mechaincs aren’t there.
So why should I be concerned with semantics? Who cares if someone calls it a marriage, if I think of it as a civil union?
The improper use of the word is a wedge. The entire point of saying that Marriage can apply to gay couples is to allow them the tool to break the Christian church.
Once it becomes law that gays can marry civilly, the gay community will use the law to attempt to force Priests to marry them, which is of course impossible, and a priest who declines to do so will be subjected to legal action.
The problem is, in most of Christianity, homosexuality is considered a no-no. Not all, mind you, there are lots of denominations that openly accept the gay lifestyle (ALL Christian churches accept gays, incidentally. Just not their behavior).
The law will allow the gay community to force the churches to rewrite Christianity to suit their purposes. This is a problem. This tactic has been used over and over again to force one organization or another to accept people who do not fit the mold of that organization, and has done irreparable harm in many of these situations.
This would destroy Christianity, and that is it’s point. Gay men and women have less of an issue of being excluded from their faith, than they have with being told they are sinners. Legalizing gay marriage is the first step toward rendering useless the mores of Christianity. The bottom line is, most of Christianity won’t allow for homosexuality, so rather than trying to find a place where they are accepted, the gay community is set on making the straight community as unhappy as they are.
Christianity has enough trouble without adding this to the mix.
And legislation by judicial fiat is flat wrong, everywhere.
29 comments Og | Uncategorized
“The law will allow the gay community to force the churches to rewrite Christianity to suit their purposes.”
The churches should refuse. When the state gets involved, they should have their lawyers say “separation of church and state…it’s a two-way street. Now bugger off.” Of course, they won’t do it. Sadly, more than a few will be all for it just for the extra funds. Many suburban mega churches are so watered down with the “whatever you’re doing is okay in God’s eyes, now we’ll pass the plate, again” message that this really won’t be any skin off their noses. It’s about money and appearance, not His Word. It certainly isn’t about Christianity, but rather Churchology. Can’t help but think God ain’t real happy with them…
Couldn’t agree more, OA.
Great post.
Right on target. Everything you said is what I have been saying for years. You just put more eloquently than I ever have.
Thanks Og.
“Once it becomes law that gays can marry civilly, the gay community will use the law to attempt to force Priests to marry them, which is of course impossible, and a priest who declines to do so will be subjected to legal action.”
I don’t know if a priest who declines to perform a marriage can be subjected to legal action… incidentally, a priest at our neighborhood church refused to perform the marriage ceremony for Lisa and I, because we bought our house and moved in while we were engaged. I doubt I could have brought legal action against him even if I’d been so inclined.
There’s no fag like an old fag.
I know some queers are just gay and that’s it. I would like to see those folk get a fair shake under the law same as anyone else.
But it seems to me that the average homo is not a healthy person. Many are bitter, sullen people and most are outright loons with serious mental issues.
It went the same way up in Canada. The gov’t over-rode the majority, rammed gay marriage through the legal system, and now the gays are pounding on the doors of the classrooms trying to force their agenda on children.
I think kids should be allowed to be kids before being forced to confront sex and homosexuality and sexual deviancy.
I agree with you about Justices actually writing the law, it’s been going on for years and needs to stop.
I disagree about gay marriage damaging the (Catholic) church. The church has done much worse on its own.
So bone: It’s already broke, so why not just crush it underfoot, is that it?
The Cathoic church is in the process of rebuilding itself, and fixing it’s problems. Now is not the time to start kicking it, when it’s just starting to recover.
The obvious solution for this is for the .gov to be out of the marriage business entirely. Want to get married? Go to a church. Want to register a civil partnership? Go to a judge. The church shouldn’t have to recognize the .gov’s certificate, but neither should the .gov automatically recognize the church’s.
As to the issue of The Law overriding the will of the majority, well, I have to disagree with you. In a Republic, that’s what the Law is for. Just because the majority likes something don’t make it right. exempli gratia: Slavery or Jew-burnin’.
Remember: As Kathy at Cornered Cat.com is fond of saying, “A lynch mob is a supermajority with only one dissenting vote.” ;)
Activist judges overriding the will of the people to promote their own agenda is wrong, period. Maybe you forget that activist judges overriding the will of the people is what STARTED Jew burning, and slavery. Do the research- once Hitler was made chancellor, he used judges he appointed to get laws passed that allowed him to persecute the jews. Same goes for slavery- the well-off legislated slavery, the common man in early America was threatened by slave labor. If the will of the people is the right to keep and bear arms, and judicial fiat changes that (say, in Chicago) is that right? No. If the will of the people is to eliminate private ownership of firearms, MOVE!!! you’re surrounded by idiots!
As far as your first point? couldn’t agree more. I think only Churches should be in the Marriage business. I think ALL secular unions are civil unions. And that’s fine by me.
Thanks for the well thought-out post. However, I’m not sure I agree with you that “marriage” is more the domain Church than the State. There have been times in history when marriage ceremonies could not even take place in a church.
I’m a pastor and too often couples I marry want to be married by a pastor in a church not for faith reasons, but out of superstition that it might help their marriage last.
Nonetheless, I agree that from the Church’s perspective marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman.
Og, good post. Sad thing is the people making these decisions – the judges and the politicians who appoint them – don’t give a crap about the preservation of the Christian church. I argued in a post yesterday that this is just the beginning. My prediction is the next argument gay marriage advocates will make is that the only way it’s “fair” to ban gay marriage is if being gay and leading a gay lifestyle is also banned. And you know that’s not going to happen. Another blogger also pointed out that if the California decision stands it’s going to put a tremendous additional strain on goverment resources and corporate benefits programs, what with gay’s spouses suddenly being entitled by law to social security, medical benefits, etc.
Wait till a “legal” gay couple leaves California and sues for their “rights” in, say, Kansas.
Og, the last is very important. It must be established that other states need not recognize any such “marriage”. We don’t have to recognize the National Socialist states’ gun laws outside their jurisdictions, do we?
I know, comparing apples & Semtex. Had to throw it in, though.
I don’t care what those gay folk do. I want to marry my dog, and according to this ruling, I should be able to shouldn’t I?
Society should be able to define its own institutions. In California, the voters (the majority) decided and now the judges are overturning it. Don’t the liberals believe in democracy?
Right on the mark og.
H’mmm.
I mostly agree with Tam about this: government-endorsed wedlockery and religious marriage aren’t the same animal and should be even farther apart. Civil unions are a contract and should be subject to the same limitations as any other contract but no more, a sentiment which has me thinking any combination of responsible adults (but not a boy and his dog — they already can’t make a legal contract) should be okay with the bureaucrats. (Why, think of the attornies it’ll keep busy! For that matter, why should participants in unconventional relationships be spared the warm delight of gutwrenching, impoverishing divorces? Mmmmbaby). Marriage, on the other hand, is religious sacrament and the State otta butt right out, as in GTFO. (But remember, that means no beatin’ up the MCC, Friends and Unitarians when they go and marry same-sex couples, either. This freedom of religion stuff cuts both ways — an’ freedom of the press means we can fume about it as we see fit).
However, the State and Church are already more divorced here in the US than most folks seem to think; in Indiana, the preacher’s essentially signing off on the .gov paperwork as a presiding witness and you can have anyone you deem suitable do that instead. Likewise, churches are free to refuse to link up couples they don’t think should be hitched and aren’t even required to show cause — ‘cos it is none of the Court’s business.
As for the fellow who thinks the gummit otta be supporting The Church, last I heard, all Uncle Sam and his fifty piglets were required to do in the way of “protection” was stay outta the way and I like that — government big brothers have a nasty history of becoming Big Brother.
Rolling back the power of the legislature, the Executive and the courts to meddle in people’s lives is a good idea generally. If they can’t do much, they can’t do much harm.
“But remember, that means no beatin’ up the MCC, Friends and Unitarians when they go and marry same-sex couples, either”
Indeed. As I pointed out, there are plenty of denominations that are perfectly happy with same sex. Why not leave them to it? I think the point of this is to drive a wedge in the churches who do not allow same sex, and damage them.
OKay. I’ll go on record here what I suggested to you in IM today in addition to what I wrote 3 years ago.
As long as the courts allow redefinitions of ANY words, let alone words that for eons meant only one thing, our constitutional republic is doomed.
Our constitutions are written to LIMIT what government can do.
Letting the courts redefine words fit permits too few to instantly amend any constitution.
As with a hacker’s “back door” access to your finances, the willful redefining of words is the back door through which tyranny grants itself the right to write its own rules.
Thus I wanted to cry bitterly when I read RobertaX’s closing paragraph. Far from being a demonstration of the lessening of governmental control, this tactic demonstrates how every barrier to the growth of power can be eliminated.
Wiser words are rarely spoken, my friend.
Pascal, I may have been less than clear; I would very much favor a situation where the CA court — and the other two branches of their government — had no say in who got married, as long as they were legally able to enter any other sort of contract and the health concerns anent inbreeding were taken into account. What’s the Gummint doing in the wedlock business, anyway?
As for the actual legal decision, as nearly as I can parse it, they read the laws and Constitution of CA and tried to sort them out as best they could — another blogger addresses it here and here — which is what courts supposedly do. I don’t really see ’em “redefining” anything.
As far as I know, there is no way for the State to compel any church to marry folks they don’t want to marry; many religions are still not so happy with marrying outside the faith, for instance, and nobody’s making them do it. Likewise, in matters of employment, churches are generally allowed to preferentially hire those adhering to their beliefs. So I do not see where this ruling constitutes any sort of “wedge” driven into Christianity (et al) that wasn’t there already; the three faiths I cited early already do some kind of solemnization folderol for same-sex couples.
“Marriage” as sanctioned by (and variously perfomed by) agents of the State is, in fact, a civil union. “Marriage” the religious sacrement is a parallel thing; the preacher can go through all the motions but if you didn’t get the license and it doesn’t get properly filled out, the Gummint would still not count you married, no matter how very married you would be in the hearts of the faithful, the records of your church and eyes of G-d. –Or ask any divorced and (civilly) remarried Catholic if the Pope thinks he or she is married to that new spouse: nope. They can try for a Church anullment but it’s long odds against.
Separation of Church and State is your friend. It might not stop the homos from hitchin’ in MA and CA but it’ll sure-nuf keep them from being hitched by your local AofG.
Roberta, I think Pascal is agreeing with you. The issue is the word- as I said, it’s the redefining of the word to mean something it isn’t, that will act as a wedge to force churches to do what the courts believe they should. The gay community wants acceptance of their lifestyle by their chosen faith, and if they can’t get it, they’ll use this redefinition of the word to damage the church, and they’ll succeed.
I don’t see how they can Og; courts have no authority over churches. If the chosen sect or denomination of a same-sex cople won’t marry ’em (in a state that allows it), they have no standing to sue: they can GTFO and then either find another church that will, or go stand before a judge. Nor can they then return and compel thir church to recognize their union; the Catholics (et al) already set precedent along those lines with regard to the divorced and (outside The Church) remarried.
Presuming that a congregation will be better off without bitterly divisive internal conflict (seems likely to me that more amity and less enmity is a good thing), a ruling like the one in CA may actually help some churches, by bringing matters to the fore and impelling mugwumps to either STFU or GTFO.
roberta; three words- tax free status.
Not yet.
Dija know that churches used to be taxed? ‘Strewth. But nobody whizzed all over ’em if the preacher got poltical. Them was they day.
The point is, they will be threatened with loss of their tax exemption if they don’t comply, and it will bankrupt many a church, a lot of which are at a subsistence level already.
[…] Tam at View From The Porch doesn’t discuss “Oh noes! Teh gayz are getting married in Kali!”. She does point out a couple of people that do discuss “Let them get married already” and “Gay marriage ban overturned.” […]