The Good Old days
Steve, a couple days or a week ago, and today, Roberta, are pining for the fjords good old days of “non electrocnic cars”.
Having messed with both, I can safely say they’re both nutty as fruitcakes.
Oh, ther’es something about a cool old engine with actual points in there clacking away, but if you do any serious driving, you go electronic, every time. And carburetors? Strictly for suckers.
The real bottomline is, that shit is on cars because it’s more reliable. period. No argument is even possible, because that is a fact.
There are failures of electronics, that is the nature of that beast. But taken as a whole, a properly designed system, like anything from the big three, or the Bosch and other stuff used in europe, will just run. FOr ages. And not stop. There is precious little that will happen to an electronic ignition, and the coil tower types are undoubtedly the most reliable, with few exceptions.
Oh, if you drive six miles to work each day, and you don’t mind being under the hood of your car at least once a month, you can take a carbureted car and point type ignition a long way. They do run. And they are relatively simple to repair, if you have a clue what you’re doing. And it’s not difficult to obtain that clue. But if you want to get in your car and drive, you go electronic engine management system (EMS) all the way. Because it runs.
The other thing it does, is make sure all the shit works together. A carbureted car needs to be adjusted with variations in gas, variations in altitude. Anyone who has ever driven a carbureted car (or, for that matter, motorcycle) into the mountains understands this simple fact. Even dramatic changes in atmospheric pressure can affect the way a carb works, which is why in later years, carbureted vehicles had all kinds of added on vacuum driven components whose purpose was predominantly to compensate for all the potential variables that could affect the car. And most of this shit failed at the first sign of a vacuum leak. Point ignitions were subject to the most devilish types of failures, and anyone who has ever stood alongside the road in a pouring rain trying to understand why their ignition just all of a sudden failed to ignite will go electronic the moment it is feasable.
I recently sold my 62 Land Rover. She was a hoot, a great old broad who took me a lot of places I’d never be able to get any other way. And it was the most horrid pain in the ass I ever experienced, from a maintenance standpoint. The ignition was primitive at best, and if a cockroach crawled up into the wiring and peed on it, it would shut the engine down for days. The suspension was utterly nonexistent. The brakes- don’t get me started. The gearbox didn’t have a single helical gear and the noise it made going down the road was indescribable. And oh, by the way, a “conventional” electronic ignition is as subject to EMP as an electronic setup, the only thing immune is a fully mechanical diesel. The first eight cars I owned had carburetors and point ignition, and I did every single piece of maintenance on all of them
I have noticed that the amount of time people spend pining for the good old days is generally inversely proportional to the amount of time they had to spend hammering those old beasts together.
34 comments Og | Uncategorized
There is one thing to be said for the old beasts; if you can survive owning one of them you’ll certainly appreciate whatever you drive next.
I learned to drive in a 1972 Chevy C10 with 3-on-the-tree, no power steering, and power-assisted brakes. I couldn’t even get my driver’s license until I learned how to change flat tires on it. I learned to do everything necessary in order to keep the poor thing running, from my own brake jobs to pulling out the engine and replacing ALL the seals. Auto mechanics have a hard time scammimg me, because I actually have a clue what’s going on.
That being said, driving our Dodge 2500 is an absolute dream in comparison. I hear plenty of people say, “I could never drive such a big truck, it’s too big and unmanageable” but I love it. I find it much easier to handle than my old C10. Thank God for power steering, power brakes, good a/c and good mirrors!
People who don’t like electronics…
My theory is that they learned to not like them when they were first coming out, and unreliable as hell. I drove an 81 cutlass, and there was always something messed up with the electronics. The thing was terrible, it would strand me repeatedly, and there was nothing I could do about it because it was always the freaking computer. Now, I drive a car just as big, twice as fast, and with better gas mileage, and nothing ever goes wrong with it. Made by GM as well.
Electronics only sucked when they didn’t know what they were doing yet.
What Chalkie said.
The early ’80’s, non-standard-interface electronic engine control systems were nearly as bad as the non-electronic systems they replaced. Mopar had an electronic-feedback carburetor fitted to the 1.7L and 2.2L fours that was world-class awful…and don’t even get me started on “Lean Burn”. OBD-II (and, to a much lesser extent, OBD-I) is what sold me on computer control systems. Of course, the magic box still doesn’t completely replace good old fashioned diagnostic skills.
Have to disagree a little on the EMP issue. True, a conventional point/distributor system will still be affected by EMP, but it’s mostly made of parts which are inherently resistant to high field strengths, with fewer connections to pick up the pulse. I suspect, but have never actually tried to do so, that those systems are easier to shield and bypass than systems with dozens of sensor circuits and sensitive components.
This is the same reasoning that leads me to keep an old KWM2A in the shack “just in case”. As long as I can keep enough fire bottles on the shelf, they’re practically indestructible.
Hate points, hate carburetors. I prefer something I don’t have to mess with. 75K on the clock on the Intrepid and I’ve never had to adjust points or fuel mix. So nice.
I learned to drive at 11 in a 1971 Chevy C-20 with four on the floor. After I got my license, I spent far too much time fiddling with carbs and ignition on a ’66 Chevy Biscayne, a ’72 Buick Electra 225, and a ’69 Ford LTD.
Chalkie brings back memories of Dad’s ’76 (I think it was a ’76) Chevy C-20 with electronic ignition that was the biggest pain in the ass GM ever built. The damn module in the distributor that replaced the points would overheat and the thing would run like shit, if it ran at all. The fix was to pull it, swab some Vaseline under it, and put it back. It then ran great till it burned the Vaseline out and started puking its guts again (generally about once a week). I used to get strange looks about the container of Vaseline we kept in the glove compartment…
I just don’t have time for that crap anymore — it needs to run first time, every time. And with modern engines, it seems to do so.
Ham: A coil and a condenser self destruct with very mild emp. Sometime, in person, ask me how I know.
This topic reminds me of my first car with an EMS: a 1988 Pontiac 6000.
I grew up during the era that you did, Og, so you know the kinds of cars I learned on. When I first looked at the Pontiac and imagined myself working on it, I was at a complete loss. How can I fix this car? No points, no distributor, no way to adjust the timing…
Then, it dawned on me: Not being able to dick with that stuff meant not HAVING to dick with stuff. Wow.
Then, I found out that if I tickled the interface plug just right, the EMS would tell me what was wrong with itself!!! Damn!! This is SO COOL!
Then, I realized that this computer controlled everything so well that the engine ran very efficiently. My car only had a four-cylinder backed up by an automatic, but it could more than keep up with traffic even when it was fully loaded. It would also turn in 30 MPG on a regular basis.
Now, EMS makes my Italian sports car much less finicky than its carburated forebears and makes it possible for my family car to have an engine that puts out a horsepower per cubic inch and remain dead reliable and fuel efficient.
I thought GM’s HEI was a godsend, even if it did roll off at high rpms. It wasn’t designed to run up there anyways. And idle adjustment screws? I even had the special wrench – the one with the inner cable. Even the two barrels needed adjustment about every other month. Plugs at least every 8 – 10k even with HEI. People forget carb cars actually had to warm up before you could drive them.
The first steps coordinating ignition and carbs sucked, but since then? Much better.
Oh, and my timing light and dwell meter have been lost to the ages. Oh damn.
Learned to drive in a 66 Dodge Dart; 1st car was a 71 Pinto. Don’t miss monkeying with either of them.
I was thinking that after I posted last night…I’m not even sure I know where my timing light and dwell meter are anymore.
No loss as far as I can tell.
The first part of my driving career was all old-school: ’74 Ford, ’70 Pontiac, ’67 Dodge… that kind of stuff. It culminated in a Chevy Monza with a race-built V8 that, while it had an HEI ignition system, also sported the kind of compression and cam and carb jetting that meant ~40 degree mornings began with a squirt of ether down the throats of the 650 Double-Pumper.
Every time I pine for the good ol’ days, I remember praying that the still-sluggish 318 wouldn’t stall with my Coronet rolling into traffic, or that the disc/drum setup on the Torino would haul two tons of Detroit iron down from speed in time to keep from hitting the Cutlass that had just pulled into traffic and stalled out on a cold morning.
I think the second half of my driving career began with a ’79 280ZX. It’s probably still running someplace, even after the body rusted off, but that little EFI, electronically-sparked straight six was as reliable as sunrise. It was an eye-opener. And even it seems balky compared to what I’m driving now. People driving modern cars probably need to go spend a week in December using a ’75 Maverick as a daily driver…
1947 WD was my learning how to drive vehicle. Couldn’t depress the foot clutch so I had to use the hand operated one.
Once I was driving cars(1952 Chevy 3100 that I had to do valves on before I could drive it) I rebuilt the engine in that tractor. Still runs as far as I know.
Old stuff fed many marginal mechanics. New stuff needs really big repairs when it breaks, but it rarely breaks.
Current ride is 1996 Blazer that got 20 miles per on a road trip yesterday. Check the oil and fluids and that is about it. The car has a little more that 207000 miles on it.
Old stuf keeps you busy, new stuff lets you surf the net. Seems to be a good trade to me.
The only problem I see in all of this praise for computers is that THEY ALL WILL EVENTUALLY FAIL. And when they do you are done.
Of course I still own an ’88 Merkur with seven(7)(VII)(IIIX) (lots of)computers in it, so what do I know.
Oh, yeah, the Merkur would just shut itself off ever now and then when I slowed down. Turned out that there was a little bit of water in the rear tail-light assembly. When applying the brakes just right, you sometimes shorted out the entire electrical system. Only a masochist would own one; whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks, heh…
EMDFL: Please do a little homework, and tell me what the replacement costs are with computers (which like all things will eventually fail, as you say, but the VAST MAJORITY are found in wrecked cars in junkyards, still perfectly functional)versus points. You never had a point ignition car, did you? Just as I suspected.
Hi all~spot on as usual Neanderpundit but perhaps a little too practical a mindset. The beauty of the old er machines is that everyone could wrk on them.
We always broke down on vacations and road trips and we were always back up and running without having to break the bank or call in the magic men with the black boxes.
Another flaw I see with doday’s self diagnosing artificially intelligent vehicles is that alot of the times the black box will tell the mechanic to adjust a component when it should actually be pulled and throw away and replaced.
Having said all that though you are absolutely right. Today’s cars are better than ever before and most don’t realize it.
EMFDL: Having driven bunches of pre-IC and post-IC cars, I have to conclude that your theory is as all wet as your Ford Sierra’s taillight filaments. ;)
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That’s why I NEVER left home without a can of WD40 and a screw driver to remove the distributor cap in the “good” old days.
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Fuckin’ Aye.
Well, I guess copy and paste don’t work here.
JEEZ.
What were you trying to copy/paste, libs? Sorry if it didn’t work, I’m not sure if I could change it.
Hey, I was just pining for the days when I had about half a clue what was happening under the hood of my car. Any more, I open the thing up, check the oil, shudder, and close the hood. Looks like a dang jet engine to me — and that’s a four-cylinder Korean econobox. Every time I take it to get service, either I get ripped off or the problem doesn’t get fixed, sometimes both.
The old cars were definitely worse than modern ones but I spent a lot less time and money dealing with snotty, arcane specialists. And with an old car, if all you cared was that it ran, you weren’t so bad off. If you wanted it to run _well,_ that was another thing.
Bobbi, I’m only pulling your leg a bit. But it is true, a very simple computer interface will let you be a master of your vehicle for very little money, because you can track all that is happening to it. And that interface usually works on many different cars. Post coming about the good and bad of old and new, you may be inarested in it.
Believe me, working on that ems-equipped Pontiac was a low-budget, basic fundamentals affair. My main tools were:
A four-inch piece of wire bent into a U shape.
A $20 Radio Shack multi-meter with digital read-out.
Photo-copied pages of a Mitchell Manual I found at the library.
When the “Check Engine” light came on, I knew something malfunctioned. I would plug my jumper wire into the proper terminals (as indicated in the manual) and the light would blink a code at me which I would look up in the manual. I would locate the proper system (manual) and diagnose the problem (manual). Usually, replacing a sensor was the solution. If the sensor went bad on the road and I couldn’t locate a replacement, the engine would still run in a pre-programmed fashion that would not be as efficient, but would get you home.
One time, I had to replace the “brain” – a dealer-only item. “Oh no” I thought, “I’m going to get soaked.” Nope. The parts guy said that they only carried the $115 remanufactured computer because the $700 new computer did not function or last any better/longer.
For shear reliability and efficiency, I’ll take EMS every time.
Actually, I played with Volkswagon 1500S and bugs, Chevy Vegas(bored, decked, 4-barrel carb, and headers(about 250 hp), and lastly a nice 350/350 Chebby in a 4-door 67 Nova – that one was the wifes) Oh, yeah I forgot the ’67 Nova wagon, original 327 with disc brakes. Wish I still had THAT one.
I didn’t mean to imply that computers were bad for everyone, it’s just that the damn things HATE me, and I hate ’em back, heh.
My dad has been wrenching for pay since the last couple years of WWII. Stock cars, to Heavy Equipment, PA State inspection, *Current* FAA Mechanic and Inspector
At 83, he has a love-hate relationship with the electronics – He will not own anything but, yet he cusses out the manufacturers for hermetically sealing the modules. He can’t stand anything that is designed to be unrepairable. “Just a damn fuse, diode or chip bad in there, shouldn’t have to scrap the whole thing” ;) So I guess that puts me in the Electronic camp. But I love my collection of magnetos!
All of you Pro electronics guys and gals shush when I inherit his Sun diagnostic equipment including a water braked two roller Dynamometer at least until it is sold.
Clicked too soon..
The code reader is good for standard people, but the interface hack kits will enable the computer cognizant to treat their engine like a stardrive.
Kevin: Soon?
Try four years ago. You can hack almost anything now.
Emdfl, you hate the computers it’s because you never embraced the tech. Any modern vehicle will run forever on the tech if you just let it do what it’s supposed to.
I’ll tell you one thing I do miss…
My ’70 GTO was an ex-race car. The front fenderwells had been cut away to clear the headers on the dual-quad 455 that used to dwell in there. When I bought it, the race motor had been replaced by a 2-bbl Pontiac 350 out of a Firebird. You could climb under the hood with the motor to work on it while straddling the front suspension. On my Bimmer, if you open the hood you can’t even see the driveway beneath the stardrive compartment.
On the other hand, I sure needed to be under the hood on that GTO a lot. Not so much on the Zed Drei. Maybe I should get the plugs replaced; they’ve been in there more than 50,000 miles, and I’ve noticed I’m down one or two MPG on the freeway…
The Z3 plugs are fun. You take the engine cover off, pull the towers, and then hope to Sweet Jesus the plugs have not seized to the aluminum head. It’s not an expensive repair, and can be done with a total of about $12 in tools. it’s just the dielectric corrosion between the steel plugs and the aluminum head. Make damned sure you coat the plugs liberally with anti-seize, and make sure you get the ground straps on the coilovers back in the right spot.
Nah, I hate’m ’cause they always seem to fail – or be failed on by someone – at the most inopportune moment. The last time I embraced them, somebody deleted seven years of files while I was on a road trip. Course we are talking about someone who only quit using win98 when it became impossible to get support for it.
And although I can operate most any manual tool in a machine shop, I do appreciate a well-programed CNC and wish I had the spare time to learn to do it.
Sooo… you dislike computers because they crash- which usually happens due to user stupidity- and you extrapolate that to car computers, which usually go to the junkyard, still working fine?
Pass that around, it must be excellent shit.
On aluminum headed engines I will ALWAYS let the dealer replace the sparkplugs. PERIOD. That way if they fuck the threads up THEY can fix it on their dime.
I have a $3600 “experience” to show for replacing them myself once on a 1992 Chevy Beretta with a High Output Quad Four engine.
The Horror!!!
Now my blood pressure is sky high again just thinkin’ about it.
My old non-electronic car doesn’t have a carburetor or points, because it’s a diesel.
The only ICs in that thing are in the radio, and I think the (still working) cruise control system. I think one or two of the relays might have a single transistor. Maybe.
That said, electronic cars are awesome when they work right (which these days is all the time).
More efficient and powerful, because carburetors are for suckers, and a computer can adjust everything in real-time for peak efficiency or power (or whatever compromise is desired), in a way mechanical systems just can’t.
I have a truck that has an accelerator pedal connected to a big rheostat that feeds throttle postion data to the computer which then controls the engine speed.
One morning I crossed a rail road track and instantly lost throttle control. Idle was the only speed available. Pushing the accelerator pedal had no effect so I literally idled down the road about five miles to the nearest Ford dealer.
While I was sitting in the LONG line to the service dept, I realized that the track I crossed had a large metal hut sitting next to it with a bunch of antennas sticking out of it. Figuring that perhaps the communication gear in that hut had induced all kinds of nasty signals into my computer control sytem, I switched the truck off, started it back up and went on my merry way with complete throttle control. That was about ten years ago and it’s never happened again.
Yep, computerized equipment is wonderful but they can do some STRANGE stuff every now and again.