Euclid
has always been of interest to me, not because he did any individual magnificent thing himself, but because like Henry Ford he took a lot of things that others had done before him and combined them into what we now think of as plane geometry, which is the basis for Cartesian geometry.
Here’s a very simple example. Let’s begin with a circle C. We have established a convention that a circle is 360 degrees, but it doesn’t have to be; you could divide it into thousandths, or radians, or whatever, but let’s use degrees because that’s what we’re used to.
If we run a line A through the very center of the circle, it divides it into precisely two equal halves, of equal circumference and equal area.
if we run another line “a” not parallel to the original line, and also through the center of the circle, it divides the circle into four parts, C1, C2, C3, and C4.
Because of Euclids work in assembling all the previously understood pieces of the Geometry puzzle, we know certain things to be demonstrably true. For instance: the angle of the intersection of the lines that define C1 and C3 will be precisely the same. The Area of C1 and C3 will be precisely the same. The area of C2 and C4 will be precisely the same. There are mathematical proofs for all of those things, and you can look them up. They are so durable that we never question them, and accept them as facts. Once something has been proven in this matter, until the physical laws of the universe change, there is no need to re-prove these things every time.
Now if we draw a line parallel to A, and call it B, and a line parallel to a and call it b, and a circle at the intersection of B and b, we can prove some things about that circle.
For instance, the angle at C1 and at c1 are precisely equal. The angle at C3 is equal to the angle at c3. And because we know the angle at C1 equals the angle at C3, we know the angle at C1 equals the angle at c3, and the angle at c1 equals the angle at C3. We also can accurately predict the angle at C1 plus the angle at c2 will = 180 degrees. If the diameter of the circle C and the circle c are exactly the same, then the area of, for instance, c2 and C4 are exactly the same.
We know these things because of Euclid, and because he put those proofs together step by step. We had this drummed into us in sixth grade.
it’s one of the things about school that I LOVED. There’s a great little primer on how an actual proof works, I’m not going to do one here, I’m sure 90% of you are unconscious already.
Here was a way for me to look at the world and put it into a framework that really made sense to me.
Once you establish a set of rules, and you understand how those rules work, you can describe and predict a great deal, and this has always been the way I think.
In school we had a teacher draw (basically) the above diagram on the board, and asked us to prove that the angle at C2 equaled the angle at c4. The number of students that came back with “They look the same” was stunning, even for 1972.
It’s pretty easy to look at the diagram and come to that conclusion, but that’s the actual origin of the term “Jumping to conclusions” If you cannot follow the train of logic from the thesis to the conclusion, you are making assumptions that you should not make. For instance, you cannot assume that A is parallel to B just because it looks it, you must either measure it, or you must be given that information as part of the instructions in the exercise (“For purposes of this exercise, assume that A is parallel to B, and that “a” is parallel to “b”,”)
There are plenty of times when this has bitten me, and they are hard learned lessons. Not horribly long ago, i did a lot of work to my truck it didn’t need, because I “Assumed” a new part was a good part. I took it into evidence as a fact, and as Carteach reminds me, “new” does not equal “Good”. I now have that writtten on my toolbox.
Regarding our current situation in this nation right now, I have a lot of questions, and I’m trying to arrive at answers that are meaningful, without jumping to conclusions.
Here are what I consider facts in evidence.
The nation is in an economic mess.
The current administration is not only not attempting to resolve the economic mess, they are trying to make it worse.
The previous administrations were no great shakes either
I love this country, I love the freedoms it means to me and to my offspring, and I want to continue to live here and have my offspring continue to enjoy those freedoms
Based on these facts, I can draw the conclusion that I would like to see the current situation improve.
Based on that conclusion, I have many questions:
Will it fix itself? I can’t establish any theories that will say that this method (Apathy) will work.
Is it possible to fix? I think it is possible to fix, because it was possible to get in this mess to begin with. If you can go somewhere, it seems, you can also go somewhere else.
What steps can be taken to fix the situation?
Well there’s armed revolution. I certainly don’t want to see that.
There’s apathy, see above.
There’s voting, and that is one of the real questions
There are other things which I do to the extent of my ability.
About the voting, I have a lot of questions, and because I have arrived at the conclusion that
a: things are broken, and
b: I’d like to see them fixed, and
c: I think they can be fixed, otherwise why not just blow your head off now, and
d: I have a responsibility to my offspring to leave them some kind of a world to live in, I ask questions.
One of the questions I have asked is “How will not voting fix anything?”
Almost invariably it is taken as a challenge or an insult to be responded to with derision and insult. So instead of answers I get derision and insult.
I can only draw the conclusion, for this, that the people who chose to deride and insult me instead of answering the question have not thought it through. The classic examples are:
“Romney is JUST LIKE OBAMA” Well,of course this is a lie. You can say it a million times, but it is still just a lie. I dislike lies a great deal. And I consider something portrayed as fact, which is merely an unsubstantiatable opinion, to be a lie. You can make the case that there are similarities, but to say that A follows B just because it looks the same to you, without showing your work, is not the answer I’m looking for, I want to see well thought out and researched answers to the qestions i have, so that I may research them myself and draw my own conclusions- and anyone who doesn’t, is a fool. If you base what you think and “Believe” on things other people tell you and things that make you happy to believe, I’d prefer you not involve yourself in the political process at all. I just want the facts, I want them in context, and I want them without rancor or editorial. Almost every answer I got was either ‘Romney is “Just like Obama” or “Well, you’ve made up your mind, you fucking idiot, there’s no sense me talking to you anymore” or “Go ahead and bail out your cabin in the titanic”. All because I wanted an honest answer to a very simple question. I never asked but one simple question, I got a few- very few- legitimate well thought out answers, and a lot of ad hominem. I don’t mind, I have a thick skin about that sort of thing, and I understand that people rankle when you challenge their assumptions no matter how stupid those assumptoions are- otherwise there would be no democrats. Among my friends, I expect reasoned discourse, and I am frankly disapointed how little I got. I know not to try to have a reasonable discussion with a Democrat, but I place a lot more value on the opinions of my friends.
So while I just wanted that simple answer as part of a greater “proof” so to speak, I got almost nothing but people who jumped to conclusions about what would happen in another Obama term. Sorry, you’re wrong; you don’t know what he will do; you can theorize, but you cannot bring your theory to a discussion as a fact. I got people who jumped to conclusions about what Romney would do. Sorry, you’re wrong; you don’t know what he will do; you can theorize, but you cannot bring your theory to a discussion as a fact. And in any event those theorizations had zero to do with the question, which so few people resonded to that it seems like the reading comprehension out there approaches zero.
I also got “I know you’re going to do X, so that makes you a fool” that is of course a lie, and it makes anyone who says it a liar, and i hope you don’t kiss your mom with that mouth. You don’t know what I’m going to do, except ask you a question; when I’m in the voting booth, I’ll be there by myself, so making assumptions about what I am going to do and how it will turn out is the merest conjecture- again, presented as a fact in a discussion which has no relevance to what i will do in the voting booth at all, except that it might help me- and someone else who reads here- formulate a decision. Incidentally, I am a fool despite the best efforts of everyone I know, so don’t think you can insult me; I’m far beyond your reach.
Anyway, that’s the sunday diatribe. I’m sure it will engender more of the same, including more “Ron Paul!!!!”, but it won’t make any difference. Thanks to Dave, and Joe, and JN, and Guardduck for reading the question, and attempting to answer it reasonably. It has helped a good deal to know someone can think critically. I never asked anyone to agree with me, just to tell me your opinion. I wish I had gotten more meaningful ones.
Update: An email reminds me that this line of reasoning is similar to syllogism, which I guess it sort of is.
38 comments Og | Uncategorized
The firs thing that pops into my mind when I hear or see Euclid is a scraper.
To quote Tom Lehrer: “…Because addition is com-MUTE-ative!”
M
I think the political world is more aligned with non-Euclidian geometry, where parallel lines meet – far less intuitive than the more logical thinking Euclid espoused.
However, I am with you on this issue, if only for one reason. Long term, if one does not vote, one is more likely to lose that right. That is enough for me.
Oh, sure. Politics is all twists and turns- but the logic still applies.
And that’s a good one in the plus column.Don’t use it, lose it.
I read blogs because I find people that can make the two posts of yours today knowing (I assume) that the second is usually a result of the first … people more or less with similarities to myself I find rare.
One statement in your first stuck out:
“Is it possible to fix? I think it is possible to fix, because it was possible to get in this mess to begin with. If you can go somewhere, it seems, you can also go somewhere else.”
You fail to define the term “fix”. I don’t disagree that the rhetorical “we” may get back on a path similar to that the personal “we” (me, possibly you, maybe a small number of many others of more or less this generation) think we should never have left.
But causality gets in the way. We can go forward for good or bad; we can’t go back. We can – will – go “somewhere else” but it may not be in a better direction; recent history leads me to believe we’re headed deeper into the darkness (regardless of the election results)
I don’t think the rhetorical “we” will care, and I don’t think there’s time for the personal “we” to see much positive (in our eyes) change.
I have this feeling there’s another generation or two of collapse still ahead – perhaps fast, perhaps lingering – but the nation isn’t ready to move back up out of the valley just yet – most don’t think it’s a valley and there’s still goodies for the government to hand out.
Maybe I’m wrong
Q
I may have not made that clear, but that is a legitimate and valid point, and the kind of discussion I’m hoping for. So let me rectify this:
By “fix” i mean to make this better. To dial back the amount of “government” we “Enjoy” (Those are scorn quotes, for reference). By “Fix” I mean to undo some, and maybe eventually all, of the damage that has been done to our republic by people not like us.
You’re exactly correct about causality; we can only move forward, but how do we move forward towards a repair or rejuvenation of our republic.
I don’t think this can be done overnight. Furthest thing from my mind, really. In fact I am of the opinion like you, that it is a generational thing. And we have to begin it. By using the tools available to us, just as the people who got us here used those tools.
By not voting, we lead by example. We train the next generation that nothing can be done, so don’t bother trying. There won’t be a shooting war, there won’t be a revolution, there won’t be some magical prophet who will make it all better. There is only us, and there is only what we do. And if it takes two or three generations of fighting the establishment to nominate real fiscal conservatives and reclaim our freedoms, then that’s going to be what it takes.
You have not proven that applied force/armed resistance will not work, so your post is either incomplete or incorrect, you make the choice, sir.
Damn. There’s that reading comprehension again. What part of “how will not voting fix (or improve)anything” says anything about armed insurrection? You have to respond to the words I write, and not the voices in your head.
We can have any conversation you want; this conversdation is NOT about what Romney is going to do,. Not what Obama is going to do. Not about anyones wet dream about a dystopian future; it’s a simple question, and it’s easy to tell the adults from the children; the adults give a reasonable answer to the question I ask, and the children whine about how I’m stupid and didn’t ask the question properly. I love you Dog, but answer the question posed to you or shut the fuck up.
As Guard Duck said, nothing be accomplished through inactivity. A person may elect to do nothing while a particular process continues to play out, but that doesn’t constitute accomplishment – that person hasn’t done anything. So, it is inherently impossible to fix something or improve something by standing by and watching it happen.
THAT is why you aren’t getting any straight answers to your questions.
BTW, I’m glad you brought this topic up and continue to talk about it – you’ve made me think about incrementalism and how it can work both ways. The state of our nation is like a huge ship in outer space with a lot of momentum. It will take a huge input of energy to make the ship change direction, but small inputs are cumulative and have pushed the ship off of the course we desire. We can get BACK on course (an analogy I like better than “going back to a certain point”) the same way – by continually making our small inputs of energy in the direction of the desired course. Hell, it’s happening out here in nutball California. CERTAINLY, in a well-grounded state located in America’s heartland, the same thing can be accomplished.
Slash: Preach it.
I have never been in a shooting war, and I hope never to be. I do know a lot of people who lived in the middle of shooting wars, grew up in them, in the Congo, Libya, northern ireland. I greatly prefer the idea of turning this back into a nation of freedom and limited government by using the same incremental tools the left used to make it the shithole it’s becoming. Also, yeah, if people had come forward and had the balls to say “Not voting will not accomplish anything” than I could ask the question “So what do we do?” and then have THAT conversation. But it involves people turning loose their strongly held beliefs. Which I understand is tough.
I don’t want a shooting war either, Og. Life, in general, is pretty good for me, so I don’t want the needless inconvenience and danger. I can own property, I can vote without fearing for my life, I can say what I want about my government, and I am openly armed – so I’m still willing to work within the system. Besides, who says our side will win? Mao and Lenin both came to power via revolution.
Og: I don’t believe ‘Life’ or ‘Life Forms’ are equivalent to a math problem or a machine.
therefore, I do believe there things in life that can’t be ‘fixed’.
I repeat my response to your question, “How will not voting fix anything?”
The question is irrelevent.
For examples of things that can’t be fixed, take the following:
* 3 weeks before the 4-H Fair, the blood tests come back on your children’s swine project and the pigs have all tested positive for pseudorabies. They can’t go to the fair and all their summer work is for nothing. They were sold diseased pigs from the very beginning. No one knew it, but the fact remains they AREN’T going to the fair and that was what they looked forward to all summer. Their work was all for nothing.
* The droughts of 1983, 1988 and 1992. As a farmer you plant your crops expecting some sort of return but with each of these weather experiences, you come out owing more money than you did going in because they were all money-losers, big time money losers, and it was ALL BORROWED money that was lost. It took decades to recover financially, but that didn’t ‘fix’ the problem.
* Sitting in the oncologist’s office when he put the ‘scans’ up on the white screen and you see your father has 9 tumors (2 in his brain) and they are all maglinent. The operations needed to remove each are described in detail and then you realize the man we’re talking is 88 years old.
He was dead 6 months later.
* AND FINALLY, HOW DO YOU ‘FIX’ THE DEATH OF A BELOVED DAUGHTER?
TELL ME, BECAUSE THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF US DAILY WHO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ‘PROBLEM’ AND HOW YOU ‘FIX’ IT?
It is my view that the thinking that all problems in life are ‘fixable’ is a sign of incurable arrogance or performed only by those who have not faced bankruptcy for an extended period of time or dealt with heartache and grief on a daily basis for years on end. By and large, I feel I can safely say YOU have never buried a child; especially one you have known for a number of years and had developed hopes and dreams over.
As for this voting nonsense, Find me in all the recorded history of mankind where any democratic Republic has lasted for more 250 years? Any where?
I repeat your question is irrelevent because the situation is NOT fixable.
I’m not going to shoot myself or anything worse due to this expected national outcome because I’ve survived far worse on a daily basis, but I do not see a good end for this country and history would back up that analysis, but know this the chances of your children and mine having the life we have had are diminishing with each day and only those who pay attention to history understand this.
My experience is Life is most often NOT fixable and the best you can do is simply LEARN how to suffer through it…
All The Best,
Frank W. James
The way that I look at it is that for this particular race, when looking at the legislative and executive records of both major party candidates, neither of the represent me or my interests. And because of how the system works currently, any vote for somebody other than the two major candidates is statistically irrelevant because the vast majority of people who vote are going to vote for one of the two.
BUT, there are plenty of lower races where my vote does actually matter, and where my vote has more impact. Additionally, my city councilmen, county commissioners, sheriff, and state representatives have a much greater impact on the legislative burden I am forced to endure than either Obama or Romney.
So while I will probably write in “None of the Above” on the Presidential portion of the ballot, I am still going to show up to vote. Because the rest of the races matter. And they matter more.
Frank: I wouldn’t wish your tragedy on anyone.
I have not buried my own child, and I hope never to do so. I have buried children that I knew and loved, and in the course of one particular year, buried so many people I loved due to accident and illness that I considered cutting off my hands so that I would not have to carry any more loved ones to holes in the ground.
I have my share of personal tragedy too. The Creator does things beyond our control and we are left trying to understand, and most of the time it is impossible to understand. Sure, there are things we cannot change, but all things are not everlasting. Niebuhr’s Serenity prayer is clear enough:
“God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference”
“You cannot fix this” is a legitimate answer, but not for me. The Creator put each of us on this planet for a purpose, and on the day when I stand in front of my Creator I want to be able to honestly say that until the end, I did things I could do to change the world and reduce the suffering of others. Even if the thing I could do was only prayer- as if there was anything “Only” about prayer.
I have had plenty of opportunities to throw up my hands and say “That’s it, nothing more can be done”. Having my first wife cheat on me, and walk out on me. Burying my father, not much older when he died than I am now. Identifying the body of a favorite uncle at the morgue, a point blank shotgun wound in his chest. Burying another favorite uncle, a torn and broken man who came back from the second world war less than whole but still had an amazing attitude his whole life. Burying his child less than a month later because of a freak accident. Dealing with the attempted molestation of my own child by people we had trusted for years. Am I the eternal optimist? No. But I know the Creator lets me know in no uncertain terms, every time I feel like throwing up my hands and walking away, and there have been plenty of those times, let me tell you, The Creator reminds me that He is in command, not me.
I think the nation we live in is in a world of shit, but it is my considred opinion that for the following generations, it is worth fighting for, tooth and claw, and I will do so until they plant my ass in a hole in the ground. I’m trying to figure out ways to make that happen, and it seems people are determined to be pissed off at my questioning. That isn’t my intent, and I’m sorry if it has happened, but it doesn’t change anything. I’m going to keep asking those questions and keep trying to find ways to make things better if i can, even if i have to do it one person at a time.
Slash: “Besides, who says our side will win? Mao and Lenin both came to power via revolution. ” Mostm of the time, it seems, the wrong side in a revolution is the one that wins. I get the feeling that our revolutionary war and civil war are weird abberations, and that we got a good deal of luck from the Creator. I hope he has a little of that left.
Your assumptions make me curious. What exactly do you consider broken and how do you know that to be fact?
There is nothing wrong with our form of government. The Constitution and the underpinnings of the United States is not perfect, but “close enough for Government work”. The people in charge, and current interpretation are all that needs “fixing”.
Only if one is confident our entire form of Government is wrong can one determine there is no fix. There may be problems with the process, but political parties have come and gone in the past, and the direction of Government has changed over the past two centuries as well.
The only means to change Government is through Bullets or ballots. If a person is determined to change the form of Government and chooses not to vote, the only recourse is insurrection.
I guess there is a third option, sit back throw up your hands and say “the hell with it”. But that will not change anything. Is inaction an action?
Per Frank’s arguments. Those things are nature and cannot be fixed. (and I pray God never visits such tragedies on me) Government is a construct of man. It can be fixed/changed, etc.
A combine, a car, a building and a Government are all constructs of man. They can be rebuilt, fixed, or built anew in a different form.
To answer the original question .. There is no answer to the question, not voting will not lead to change.
Arcs: I consider our system “Broken” because the number of burocrats compared to public sector workers is close to 20%, where I think it should be closer to 5%. I consider it broken because constitutional rights are being trampled. I consider it broken because taxation has gotten out of control, and government regulation of private industry has become onerous.
Despite these things, our economy continues to survive; that tells me that the free market is remarkably adaptable, and if unleashed, would boom incredibly. And a single president could DO that, though dialing back government as a whole is a tall order.
Joe: I’m with you. If it can be made, it can be broken, and it can be fixed. I get that humans aren’t math problems- and that is why I never make decisions based on what humans will do, because they often surprise me, not always in a good way. I tend to make decisions based on irrefutable facts, and minimize the human element as much as possible.
OK, let me have a go. Note, I didn’t read all the above comments yet, I wanted to get this down first.
Assumptions:
1) We’re talking about voting in the Presidential election. I don’t know what’s going on at your local level, so can’t, or at least won’t, comment.
2) The Presidential election comes down to Obama or Romney, one of those will be sitting in the Big Chair next year.
3) You can vote for one of the above, or some other, or you can choose not to vote. For our purposes we’ll consider a vote for some other a non-vote, see (2) above.
4) Now this is where the cheese binds, so to speak. Your vote may, or may not, have an effect on the outcome of the election. Maybe your one vote will be the one that tips the popular vote for your state so all that state’s electoral votes go to one candidate or the other, and those electoral votes make the difference in the outcome.
5) More cheese, more bind: Either Obama or Romney will make things “better”. This requires a couple caveats: a) by “better” we don’t necessarily mean better than they are NOW, but better than they’d have been had the other guy won. b) We can only made the distinction of which is better based on what we know of the candidates NOW. It’s possible that Obama could wake up the morning after Election Day possessed by the spirit of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, but it’s not the way to bet.
6) Based on (5) with its caveats, let’s suppose Romney to be the (perhaps marginally) “better” candidate, and is the one you’d vote for should you decide to vote. If you’re seriously thinking of voting for Obama as a way of hastening the collapse, well, that’s a different discussion.
So we now have a 4×4 matrix:
You Vote, Romney wins
You Vote, Obama wins
You don’t vote, Romney wins
You don’t vote, Obama wins
Now the whole thing revolves around (4) above, did your vote (or would your vote have) affect(ed) the outcome of the election?
Based on assumption (6) above, that Romney is the “better” candidate and that if you vote you’ll vote for Romney, I’d have to say that your vote MAY help make things better, and that not voting can’t possibly do so. The best not voting could do is not make things any worse (either Romney will won without you, or Obama will regardless of whether you vote, but that it may actually make things worse (you may make the difference).
Sorry, the Computer Scientist in me came out there, it reads like a spec.
Mark: I have been waiting for four days for you to show up and do this.
Og: Wow, I am seriously flattered.
Been a little busy the last few days, and it sometimes takes me a while to formulate something like that. I used to get in trouble at work for “not doing anything” when given a program to write, except I found that I could spend two days working the problem out and a day programming, and it would WORK, rather do what others did which was start programming right away, spend three days programming, then six days debugging (and producing code that looked like somebody ate four packages of Ramen noodles and barfed it up).
Not voting won’t “fix” anything.
Voting (Nationally or Locally) won’t fix this:
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/johnransom/2012/05/07/unemployment_explained_obamas_disability_scammers/page/full/
Or this in your neck of the woods:
http://www.wthr.com/video?clipId=7054149&topVideoCatNo=103348&autoStart=true
Etc… Etc… Etc…
We’re too far gone. Too many who’s hands are in the till. Too many with a vested interest in Bigger Government…. from Corporate Titans to the Gang-Bangin’ Home-Boy down the skreet. Too many politicians who’s vested interest is spreading Government Largess and dependence far and wide.
Most folks I talk to are ignorant as to just how wide and deep the gaping maw we are staring into is. They really think that increasing taxes on Rich Folk will fix it!!! The Government could confiscate every penny of wages over $250,000 and STILL have nearly a half-trillion dollar deficit. We are talking some SERIOUS fkn money here. When I try to educate them regarding this they obviously don’t believe it and look at me as if I am a leper.
Sadly, I vote now for who I deem to be the lesser of the two evils in order to forestall what I see as the inevitable. Government growth and spending when projected on a timeline has become an exponential curve. Our demise is accelerating. We are getting much worse each and every day. Not due to the acceleration of gravity but to the acceleration of Government.
Prove me wrong. Show your work.
“We’re too far gone”
And had the NRA and gun owners said that twenty years ago we wouldn’t be down to one state with no concealed carry provision.
They got where they are incrementally. Incrementalism works. Ask Democrats.
There, work shown. Prove THAT wrong. Incidentally, I can dig up all the facts and figures showing how concealed carry has gone from a few states to the law of the land almost everywhere, and I can plot the progression of liberal bullshit over that period too; I assume you’re smart enough to have witnessed this for yourself.
You know Og, I think I understand part of the reason some people refuse to vote because it won’t make things better. There are a few intertwined reasons, I think:
1) No, voting alone won’t fix it. We have to vote AND raise the next couple generations so they’ll have the same love of liberty and self-reliance we have.
2) Voting won’t fix it in the next election cycle. It won’t fix it in this generation. I’ll probably be safely cremated by the time we see mail-order rifles (without an FFL), a balanced budget, welfare reduced to people who genuinely need it, etc. Americans sometimes aren’t good at taking the long view.
3) It can be depressing to work for goals you won’t live to see. I’d LOVE to live in the type of nation the founding fathers envisioned when they wrote the Constitution. I’d have to outlive Methusela to do so. It’s easy to give up, unless of course you’re as stubborn, grouchy, and cantankerous as I am.
As an aside, when people first meet me they think I’m a grouchy, cantankerous, anti-social old bastard. Once they get to know me they realize they’re mistaken. My parents were married. (Apologies if I’ve used that on you before, I’ve been using it for years.)
mark, I’m on the same page.
A car is on a two mile trip. The car averages 30mph during the first mile. How fast does the car have to travel the second mile to average 60mph for the entire two mile trip?
Solve that and you’ll understand the sitcheeashun we’re in.
I’m not in the mood for smartassery at the moment, libs.
libsarenavelint: (at risk of getting into a pissing contest on Og’s blog) What you’re missing is that there’s no deadline for the process, right now we’re fighting a delaying action to try to keep the wheels on until we CAN get things back where they should be. Which means if we make an incremental improvement, or even incrementally lessen the damage that might have been done, we’ve done our job and hopefully started on a better world for our grandchildren or great-great-grandchildren. It’s a ratchet, we’re going a click at a time.
Around 170 years ago, people — that would be voters — thought the Whig Party had become too much like the Democratic Party. Voters were sick of endless “compromise” that did nothing ot fix the nation’s problems. The Republican party was born. It took two election cycles for the Republicans to come to power and the Whigs to die an inglorious death.
Don’t tell me we are stuck with the status quo. It is our collective vote that brings about change. Even as a minority.
Individually, our voice is puny and inaudible. But as we all sing together we become a mighty chorus.
That is enough, you either understand the importance of voting, or choose to make yourself a mere ostrich.. We all get a choice.
170 years ago we didn’t have tens of millions of folks attached to the Government Teat. It’s easy to increase entitlements. It’s damn near impossible to take them away. (see Greece, France, et al)
There’s a little grocery store in a small town where I occasionally shop. I’ve stood in line on multiple occasions and EVERYONE in front of me has paid with EBT. EVERYONE. It makes the blood run cold.
Last year I passed by a phone store that had a line of folks that stretched around the block. I thought that was strange so I did some checking. Come to find out they are handing out free cellphones to the “disadvantaged”. I make it a point to pass by that store as often as I can. Every time I do there is a line stretched around the block.
http://www.assurancewireless.com/Public/Welcome.aspx
“Assurance Wireless is brought to you by Virgin Mobile USA and is a Lifeline Assistance program supported by the federal Universal Service Fund program.”
God help the politician that tries to change it. He’s gonna need it.
Speaking of exponential curves:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/two-charts-exposing-americas-record-shadow-welfare-state
DAMN.
So, lets wait a little longer before we start doing anything.
There is never any shortage of folks willing describe just how difficult (read impossible) it is to do the right thing…
Pisses me off…
You are right Libs. I guess the right thing to do is throw up our hands and give up.
Og,
I think there is a point that you are overlooking when you talk about “incrementalism”, and how we can use it to get back on track. Your thought seems to be predicated on our location being on a linear slope of progression, so of course we can get back to a more level flight, we just need time to work at it.
The problem some are seeing is the airplane of state appears to be approaching, or has passed, being recoverable. The nose is near vertical, and tucking under, and has encountered compressibilty. The odds of anyone being able to save it at this point appear remote, due to factors out of our control. Changing pilots at this late date may influence the location of the smoking hole, but little else. Swapping in a pilot who could walk on water, so to speak, may be enough to avoid the smoking hole, but that option seems remote, and getting more so as time goes by.
Time is the problem. Previously, it wasn’t critical, but now?
yep, Will, we’re auguring in. There is no possible pull out. We’re all gonna die. tellya what, we can shoot each other, and avoid the inevitable pain of the crash. I’ll go first- go stand up against that hbulkhead.
Every person, every generation has always said the same thing. “its too late to do anything!!”
Eventually, on account of them not doing anything, they’ll be right.
“New Does Not Equal Good.”
A great thing to paint on a toolbox.
I have “Sic Transit Gloria Mundi” painted on the back of my rollaround. I painted it there in 1985 when I was working in an aircraft factory and had to provide my own tools.
Actually, there does seem to be a national majority in favor of smaller government. (Not no government, just something less than the current bloated monstrosity.) Since about 1972, the main thing a Republican has to do to be elected President is to *believably* claim to be for smaller government (Reagan, Bush 41 once, Bush 43 the first time). And a Democrat’s best chance to become President is to follow a Republican administration that’s neutralized that issue, even for other Republicans, by notably increasing the size of government (Carter, Clinton, Obama). And yet, the Republicans continue to break their promises, and the Republican establishment continues to promote RINOs and completely corrupt politicians…
The first thing to realize about politics is that politicians will serve *themselves* first. They are the most important interest group – and almost anyone who stays in an elected office long enough will realize that expanding government is in their interest (even if they didn’t start out with an unhealthy interest in other people’s business.) It increases their power to tax A’s money and buy B’s vote. It increases the motivation for businesses, unions, and every other association of the people to send lobbyists to wine and dine the legislators, to make campaign contributions, to pass on insider investment tips.
A company CEO cannot buy or sell stock on inside information – but a Congressman can, even if the inside information is whether a new regulation, subsidy, or bailout is going to pass. An ordinary Congressman gets an annual salary of $169,300, and yet he’ll probably be a millionaire in 4 years!
All we can do to counterbalance that is to occasionally un-elect the worst of the lot. And the problem there is that most of the voters believe what the politicians say, rather than looking at what they do. And the lamestream media aid and abet this… (Bigger government is also in their interest. It generates more stories. Often they don’t even have to work for the story – just show up for the press conferences.)
So, sometimes you have to vote for Republicans because the Dems are even worse – but if you keep voting for backstabbers and robbers, you will keep being stabbed in the back and robbed. Vote for the Mitt if you can stomach him, but if you can’t, don’t stay home. Learn about the state and local races; your vote counts more there, they have just as much power to ruin your life, and there’s a better chance of finding a candidate that’s not yet been corrupted. Also, it’s the local pols piling onto the bandwagon that allow critters like the Bushes, Mitt, and Obama to win the nominations in the first place – so start by voting *those* bastards out.
And where there’s no acceptable major party candidate, don’t leave the slot un-filled. Vote Libertarian or Constitutionalist, or anything else that signals you want the government to pull back. A lot of elections have been won by something like 48.5% to 48.0. You want the loser to think about how just a fraction of the none-of-the-above voters would have put him over the top. It’s not going to happen if you aren’t counted.