I don’t want to make people think
that I don’t like Christians. I do, I love every damned one of them. But what most people call “Christians” and what I consider a Christian are vastly different things.
See, a real Christian would probably be driven barking mad by what is labelled Christianity today. That’s why I feel that they must be rare as hens teeth, because they’d have to have had almost no exposure to the outside world.
The very best most of us can do is to try to process the hundreds of thousands of conflicting signals we receive every day.
It’s bad enough to deal with the churches. I mean, the Catholic Church has more than a few bodies buried here and there, and some of them are pretty horrendous. That by itself is troublesome enough, but at dozens of points in the history of Christianity, various leaders, sickened by what they saw as a perversion of the Church, split off to form their own groups. The eastern rite.The lutherans, The puritans, the calvinists, yadda yadda. At each split, they changed the rules so they could be the “one true church”. And they convinced their faithful of that. Everyone could find a bible passage that spoke to them and say “without a baptisim by fire you cannot be a true Christian” or whatever.
Catholics will tell you they’re the one true church. Lutherans the same. In fact, the more obscure and bizarre the denomination, the more likely you are to hear “Nobody but US does it right!”.
Let me tell you a little secret: They’re all wrong.
So how do you know what it takes to be a Christian?
Fuck if i know. If you figure it out, let me know. If you think you got the answer from Jack Hyles, or Joel Osteen, or John Cardinal Ratzinger, you’re either totally wrong, or you’re missing something vital.
I do this: I look into my heart. I try to do the things I think Jesus would want me to do. My heart is not always as pure as it could be, and I’m sure that a lot of times I get it wrong. In fact, I’m pretty confident the only reason I’m still alive is because they’re having trouble preparing my special spot in Hell. But I don’t stop trying, because I believe the God of Abraham is not an asshole. And I believe he wants us. Even me.
And I don’t flavor my political beliefs with my Christianity, or my attempts at it, my political beliefs are strictly practical and pragmatic. There are people who are not Christians, and I shouldn’t ask them to conform to my beliefs- but neither should their beliefs conflict with my ability to worship in a way I see fit.
So don’t get your ass in an uproar because I don’t think you’re a Christian, by my definition, I’m not either, and though we should all strive to be, I bet most of us fail every day. And yes, Jesus died for ALL our sins. Otherwise what would be the point of what he did?
18 comments Og | Uncategorized
Most of the “Christians” I know of are the ones who proclaim they are with the loudest voice, and they are without a doubt, the biggest and most hypocritical assholes on the planet. Fuck em, and feed em the leftover fish heads.
+1 on all that.
Having spent my upbringing in many different sects of Christianity (and finally settled on Catholicism, as that’s where my comfort zone is) I’ve seen more than my share of “Christians”. I completely agree; much is lost in the dogma of the “one true faith.”
People should stop being so obsessed with labels and just concern themselves with doing the most right that they can.
Oh I dunno, Jesus did a pretty good job laying out the requirements, as recorded in John 11 (among other places).
Anyone who says there is anything more than that required to be a christian is selling something; or was sold something.
Doesn’t mean they’ll be “saved” or in a “state of grace” or any other such thing; but they’re a christian.
Why John 11? Why not 3:16? Why not Matthew 5? I don;’t think that anyone can point to a chapter or verse and say “this is the key”. IN fact, I’m fairly confident that doing so lessens the message. I’m astounded by those who quote chapter and verse to me, because absolutely invariably they have memorized the words of the verse without paying any attention to the spirit of the message. It’s like a cop enforcing the strict letter of the law without understanding the reasoning behind it.
No, I don’t think the bible has fuckall to do with being a Christian. We can read it as a guide, a memory of how good Christians act, and learn from it, but if you think you have to read the bible to be a Christian you’ve missed the point. Chris, you understand this, like few people I know.
To me a Christian is someone who is TRYING to follow in Christ’s path.
Followers of Christ.
Simple yet complex.
You is or you ain’t.
I would argue that there is one meaningful definition of a Christian. It’s not my definition or Og’s. It’s Jesus Christ’s opinion on the matter.
wasp, don’t make me come fuck you up. LOL! I haven’t defined Christians. all I’m saying is, they’re rare, and they aren’t who we think they are, nor do they act the way we think they should act.
I guess it all depends on whether you consider Christian as
a) someone honestly doing their best to do what they understand Jesus wants them to do, or
b) someone consistently doing what Jesus wants them to do.
I’d guess there are lots of a’s and few b’s given mankind’s failings.
(almost said “define” but wasp’s potential fate deterred me)
weet:how can you know what is in peoples hearts? how do you know what Jesus wants?
I just attended a funeral for my brother in law. He was a member in good standing of a Lutheran church.
I don’t think I’ve ever attended a funeral where there was no room to sit but this was one.
Apparently he had helped nearly evryone he could in any way he could. He was very active in scouts at all levels, but didn’t hunt or fish.
He seemed to be always asking the pastor how he could be a better man.
I think the pastor might have slanted the table a bit, but he was impressed that my brother-in-law was always trying to figure out what he should do.
Most Christians I know who are good christian know they are sinners, try to do the best they can by their family and will help any one anywhere try to resolve some problem, if they can. I don’t think Jesus would be upset at that.
But then what do I know, I’m a methodist :-)
*sigh* Now I’mna hafta kick YOUR ass, og.
That was the point. The a) people, you probably won’t notice much, and you’d have to take them at their word. The b) people involve _your_ interpretation of what Jesus wants, and is, thus, highly subjective.
Are you sure you’re not spending time judging others instead of working out “your own salvation with fear and trembling”? I ask conversationally and not to challenge.
Weet, you have to do some reading comprehension.
Tell me, how you know what is in people’s hearts, and how you know what Jesus wants? What you observe other people doing doesn’t often betray what is in their heart. And trying your best to do something and actualy doing it may be two different things, but not in the way you might suspect.
I’ve spent a lot of time observing the human condition. And things are NEVER what they seem.
I guess the point I’m trying to make- and I’m not trying to piss anyone off or make them defensive- is that if we all worked a little harder at being Christians we’d be a lot better off. We don’t know what The Creator wants of us. We cannot. We don’t always know what the “right thing to do” is.We can only try to make informed guesses- and even then…
Anyway, sorry if i torqued anyone off, it wasn’t my intent.
To paraphrase the Rich Wasp, we won’t know who the Real Christians are until AFTER the Final Judgement.
Full stop.
In the meantime, we have a Gospel with not one but four books that don’t always agree on details. And 16,000 Christian denominations, each saying it has the correct interpretation of Scripture. A couple say Eucharist is the True Presence, others that it isn’t, etc.
Me, I just say, “God, I hope I got this right. I think I chose the right path, and won’t know until it’s too late, but didn’t flub up out of orneriness, if I chose the wrong one.” I can’t say all ways lead to the right way, for why are there different ways, then, even within the Christian way, so a lot of people are bound to be upset and feel cheated. But Jesus commanded to preach the Gospel until the ends of the Earth for a reason, what the missionaries did and do. That’s how I got my faith. My ancestors were worshiping tree spirits and all that until SS. Cyril & Methodius came to make Christians out of us beastly Slavs.
Heck, I’ve talked until sunrise with people over this, and we always end up with the same thing, let’s do what we know and hope for the best. Heck, even saints recognized as Doctors and teachers of the Faith had tracts of their teachings suppressed as heresy. Who am I to think I’ll do better? Hence, turning to the catechism for guidance.
Anyway, it’ll be my luck that God will turn out to be a black lesbian rapper Dallas Cowboy fan. But seriously, I half think Depeche Mode nailed it with the line, “… but I think that God’s got a sick sense of humor, and when I die, I expect to find him laughing.”
Og, I’m not looking to start a fight.
I suppose what I was trying to say is a lot of people think they’re Christians but aren’t. Ultimately it isn’t whether I think I’m a Christian or not, it’s whether Christ thinks so. I’m not saying I have all the answers, because I don’t.
I think a good number of people would be far better served by trying to be better Christians than trying to proclaim what good Christians they are.
Meek, earth-inheriting, that sort of thing.
I’ve explained it very simply to my son. He’s 7, and started CCD this year (yeah, he’s a year late because I’m a severely lapsed Catholic…). It’s the Golden Rule, plain and simple. I think if there’s any one message that encapsulates what Jesus taught, that’s it.
Do unto others before they do unto you.
No, wait…
Seriously, the single biggest problem this discussion has is that it’s being held by mortal, fallible men (and women). Trying to understand what He wants is hard enough; trying to tell others what He wants is damn near impossible – the Heisenberg principle in action…
Which is one of the big reasons I stayed away from Church for years. Tired of hearing others’ interpretations of what He wants from me. As far as I’m concerned, as long as I’m living my life in a good and honest manner, I don’t think G-d or Jesus gives a flyin’ rat’s ass which building I sit in on a certain day…
Og, I haven’t had enough time to devote to this fascinating topic.
I don’t think I need to do more reading comprehension; I think I need to express myself better. I’ll try to do better:
1. You’re probably right in your initial statement about the difference between a real Christian and what people “proclaim.”
2. But you’re also right that you can’t know what’s in someone’s heart or what God wants. So,
3. A discussion based on 1. and 2. can be nothing but circular. So,
4. The only thing one can do, personally, is to work hard to do his best to do what he understands as what God wants him to do and to work hard to inform, educate, and form his consciencess as best he can given his admittedly limited understanding.
5. Working on No. 4 doesn’t actually involve judging others’ sincerity or the level of their Christianity, although that can be a fun diversion as long as we see it as an interesting excercise that has no real validity as criticism of that other, but can have value if it helps us with the work in No. 4.
6. I should work on my run-on sentence problem.
Does that make sense? Are we talking about the same thing?
And I wasn’t torqued. I was trying to interject a bit of levity. I’m pretty sure I couldn’t kick your ass.
LOL! It’s coo. And yes, I giggled.