In text with Pascal the other day
we discussed briefly the dichotomy between Faith and Belief.
Faith, as I said, just is, and cannot be proven or disproven. You need not have faith in the transmission of your car, because the engineering behind it is quantifianble and verifiable. You may not understand it completely, but it is possible for someone to understand it completely.
Faith- true faith- also requires nothing of you, places no demands on you. You don’t have to do any external action X (Like, be circumcised, or kill a Jew, or grow a beard)to acquire it, nor to maintain it, nor to prove it to others, because by definition it is something that cannot be proven.
Faith also is constant and consitent, and exists outside of your acceptance or abandonment of it. When you accept it it is there, when you reject it, it is still there, and when you accept it, again, it has been there, unchanging. Your faith does not leave you, you leave it. Your faith does not come back to you, you come back to it.
Contrast this with belief. Because, for instance, Belief requires you to- for instance, compare your belief to the belief of others. it is possible for you to believe one thing, and for another person to believe an utterly contradictory thing.if you have something you call “Faith” and your “Faith” contradicts someone else’s “faith”, then that is not faith, but belief. That is the simplest litmus test I can establish.
I could, for instance, say that I have Faith that the universe has a creator, and that the creator’s thoughts and actions are utterly beyond my comprehension, but even that would be quantifying something that cannot be quantified, and drag something pure and ethereal into the level of something mundane and earthly, just to try to wrap inferior human minds around it, so I won’t and don’t do that- especially as that action in itself invites others to dispute it. To attempt to quantify faith can only sully it to the level of belief.
True faith doesn’t need that, and never will.
Belief, on the other hand, must be vocalized, and each creed has it’s own set of beliefs which can be vocalized, and if anyone disagrees with that set of beliefs, they will establish new ones and vocalize those new beliefs.
Most of the division among humans is a result of dispute over those beliefs. Sure, beliefs can be innocuous, but in the main, they are toxic, and cause toxic effect. Especially when those beliefs are given divine power, and the backing of a supposed divinity to commit acts of war, oppression or physical violence against those who believe contradictory things.
I need to flesh this out more, but I hope that people are beginning to understand why more and more, I find belief to be inherently toxic.
20 comments Og | Uncategorized

Thanks for writing this. You have committed to word what I have been pondering for a few years. I explored it in writing once last year with one person, but had not revisited my thoughts on the matter since then.
I’m trying to make sure it makes sense. I appreciate feedback. You DO need- next time you leave a comment- to add the dot between musings and blogspot so the link goes to the correct place, then I don’t have to go correct it each time!! :)
Sorry about that… I did notice… For some reason I thought it was an “@” not a dot. Silly me. Heh.
Sweet, that’s better. When you go to the trouble to leave a link, I want it to be useful.
I humbly, slightly disagree. I’ve listened to you on this before, and given it a lot of thought.
It might be semantics, but for me “faith” is trust.
You tell me you’ll do something, I trust you’ll do it and act accordingly. You tell me something is a certain way, and I trust you’re correct.
What I think of things that to me are “guesses based on partial evidence” is belief.
You and I might come to different conclusions about what we see and so our belief systems are different.
This implies that another word for belief might be “theorem”.
What we are absolutely sure of we call “knowledge”.
Please don’t shoot me.
I believe that I shall have a drink.
Quatifiable, as I shall pour two measured ounces of premium bourbon.
Can I get an Amen?
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
(with all due apologies to the serious commenters!)
Jim, I have to ask. Are there plans to revive the Sloop New Dawn?
Ed: You’re heart is in the right place, but you’re not listening to what i have to say.
If I believe it’s ok to shoot someone and bury their body in a shallow grave at the crossroads, does that make my belief OK, because belief is OK? It is as possible to believe a bad thing as to believe a good thing. Does that make the bad things ok? They’re beliefs, after all.
Faith is not trust, so applied, the word loses all meaning. You can put your “Faith” into the man who built your car, that he did a good enough job that it won’t career off the highway into a concrete bridge abutment, but all the physics in that “Faith” are quantifiable. There is no need for “Faith” there, where knowledge will do. By definition, faith must relate to something which cannot be proven or disproven. The way you’re using the language is sloppy, but your heart is just fine.
I never said all beliefs have equal value.
Belief that my car will start encourages me to turn the key. I do not know that it will.
Belief that the bad brake job will be just fine will get me killed.
I only know what I know about God by what He has revealed of Himself. I choose to place my faith in Him even though I’ve never seen Him nor can I quantify Him. He has a track record. But I can’t quantify Him.
That should meet your criteria for faith.
What I think He means by what He reveals is belief.
Belief that He wants me to kill others is flawed.
Belief that he wants me to love others is not.
From my point of view, not a jihadist’s.
Is my belief toxic?
If I lend you money in the hope you will repay it, I’m putting my faith in you. I may be wrong in that faith (but not about you, I know you’d pay it back if possible). It’s not quantifiable to me whether you’ll pay me back until you do. You may lose the ability to pay me back.
I’ll check back tomorrow. G’night.
Everything you say, Ed, is why I’m trying to make this distinction. You have confused the meanings of all thosew words so much you don’t even use them consistently yourself.
If you have something you call “Faith” that you can describe, it isn’t faith.
If you “believe” in something that you can verify, you’re missing the point. What you know about The Creator of the Universe has nothing to do with faith.
“From my point of view, not a jihadist’s.
Is my belief toxic?”
Yes.
I know a guy who believes that aliens put us on earth and that all the miracles etc… are due to them.
No kidding.
So, Og, would you call that a Faith or a belief?
*mumbles* Frankly, I think he watches too much Star Trek, but that’s just my belief. :)
“So, Og, would you call that a Faith or a belief? ”
A belief, certainly. And because he feels his “beliefs” have as much legitimacy as anyone elses, he “believes” they are valid. Starting to see the toxicity?
Hmmm…
No.
I guess I’ll await your next treatise on Faith & belief when it comes out.
What you are meaning Og is Hebrews 11.1
“as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
And I must say your argument is very convincing, once you have this faith you know that nothing anyone or anything does your final outcome is assured.
Then you do not need to enforce your “belief” on anyone either. It gives you the ultimate freedom to be able to love your enemy knowing that nothing they do can harm you in the spiritual realm, the physical is just a stepping stone.
Faith and Belief are hard concepts. The fact the words have been abused for centuries does not help.
Heady concepts.
A short time ago, part of a comment I posted on a blog included this: “If you believe you have a soul, then you have Faith.†A little too brief and vague, but it served a purpose. Prior to that and since, I had been thinking of writing something along the lines of “The Essence of Faith†and this afternoon, prompted by what you had written here, I just decided to go for it. Here’s my simple version:
As for the word “Faith†itself, I prefer to look at it free of the clouded constraints upon which man has encumbered it. With this in mind, you may be able to see why it is that I agree with your thoughts here. Faith transcends belief. One’s belief is what shackles one to the word of another. Faith is what frees us from the limits of belief. Faith is constant and limitless. Belief can be altered. True Faith does not wax and wane. Faith is a prerequisite of Belief, but Belief is not a prerequisite of Faith.
Not terribly well thought out, but as I said it’s my “simple” version.
Again, I think you’re getting close, Spock, and I also think I should make it clear that this whole thought experiment is about trying to sharpen the definition of the word “Faith” where, I feel, it has been inappropriately broadened.
because Belief has been more often attached to the inappropriate than the appropriate, I grow more and more skeptical, and I’m drawing the conclusion that Belie3f is a tool of the devil.