A poll:
When you cheek weld, do you relax or tense the masseter muscle? (the muscle that closes your jaw) I’ve tried both ways and there are pros and cons both ways, I’m curious what the consensus is, and why. For the record: I don’t on small, light recoiling rifles, like rimfires or centerfires up to (Non magnum) 30 caliber; on magnums and larger rifles (especially light rifles of large caliber) I tend to clench that jaw, because I’ve found that relaxing the muscle does two very important things: 1: Gives me a bruise on my cheekbone, and 2: jars my teeth half out of my head. The clenched muscle acts as a sort of cushion to my face.
18 comments Og | Uncategorized
Pretty astute question, and one I have no answer for. The heaviest kicker I own now is a .300 Winny mag, and it really isn’t a contender in the ‘recoil’ department.
My box-stock Mossberg 12 gauge does give a fair kick after 100 rounds or so of trap. I’ll try to answer the question for myself next time I carry it to trap under the lights… if it ever stops raining.
I have never heard this question asked. It brings into question the larger issue of “how important is the cheek weld?”
Modern combat shooting is bringing into question all of the 8 steady-hold factors that were inviolate elements of marksmanship. Body Armor makes any kind of shoulder pocket impossible to achieve. Similarly. most shooting from the prone is difficult at best. Modern combat helmets with their straps and pads make the old cheek weld awkward. It seems that with light rifles at least, the only thing that matters is aligning the weapon onto the target, and other wise touching it as little as possible. I suppose that with heavier rifles, there is some tradeoff between holding the rifle down for stability and loss of stability because you are touching it.
My heaviest kicker is an FAL. I have to admit that I haven’t paid any attention to cheek weld at all.
With belt fed weapons the preferred position is still with the left hand over the butstock between the face and the stock.
Perhaps you are bruising your cheek because you are “welding” too firmly. I don’t tense my cheek muscle, and don’t get a bruise from my 45-70 or my 12 gauge.
The weld is only important for sighting; your cheek does not need to stay in contact during recoil. Allow the recoil to drive the stock away from your cheek, not into it.
I’ve never really thought about it, but I would guess I weld with about two to three pounds of pressure against the stock.
Just my opinion; no idea if its the “correct” way or not, but it works for me.
A 12 gauge I consider to be a light recoil unless it’s a very lightweight magnum.
I don’t know how much pressure I’m using, but if you shoot my 45-70 without a good solid weld, you will regret it.
“The weld is only important for sighting; your cheek does not need to stay in contact during recoil. Allow the recoil to drive the stock away from your cheek, not into it.”
The laws of physics not taught in your area of the world, are they?
Certainly it is true that differing physiologies will react differently. High prominent cheekbones might be particularly difficult to cope with.
Hale: Belt fed? Combat?
let me clarify:This question pertains only to shooting conventional type rifles and shotguns. Wood or composite stocked, conventional bolt or auto rifles and shotguns. Not combat. Not with body armor. Not belt fed anything, No bazookas, no reckless rifles, no mounted guns, no punt guns, no mortars, no combat-only weapons.
Og,
Given. Agree. I only mention the Combat/ military connection because a lot of the shooting we do in the civilian sector is greatly influenced by what the military buys and what the military teaches. The USA in particular has a very fluid transaction of information and technology between the military and civilian shooting communities.
Modern practices require us to examine the old customary practices to see if they are still valid and test to the extent that they ever were useful.
In my early military training, I clearly remember being taught to get a constistent cheek weld. But recently, not a word. A lot of standards have changed because of quantifiable improvements in the shooting sports. Some may have changed just due to negligence. I am no longer sure where the cheek weld falls in that.
So I am glad you asked the question and am looking forward to the answers posted here. I am always looking to improve my own technique.
I suppose the shape of your stock would matter a great deal. Looking through a scope over a Monte Carlo stock would certainly be higher up than one of the Stoner designs.
lol. yep.
I do know that I can shoot a european style stock much more comfortably than the US style stocks.
Professor Hale did hit upon a good word in his discussion. That word is “consistent” When target & match shooting, one must strive to be consistent. That is once you have finished your sighters and you are proceeding with your string of fire, always do everything the same, exactly or as exactly as you can.
When you have variations in your form, hold, cheekweld, etc, you will not know what caused the 9 or worse, the dreaded 8. Cheek weld is important only as far as eye position with your sights or scope. It can be tight or loose but must yield proper eye position consistently.
I shoot as an expert in smallbore prone competition where even the smallest variation yields a 9 instead of an X.
I also shoot (not quite expert, offhand kills me) highpower with a 308 where consistency is slightly less critical. (shorter barrel time for the bullet vs the rimfire).
Just incidentally, I employ a tight cheekweld for smallbore and much looser one for highpower.
Roger
Thanks, Roger, that’s consistent with my experience too. (sic)
I have fired many thousands of rounds in HP comps and over a period of 15 years cracked the back teeth on my bottom right jaw. After the third one I started using a mouth guard, looked stupid but no more broken teeth. The question of how much pressure, I think, depends on the shape of your face and the shape/size/design of your stock. I like the wide “shelf” type cheek piece over any of the more narrow types. As you know the whole exercise is to gain repeatability and if you can’t shoot a lot without pain you won’t get it. And I forget, with the sporter type stock the placement of the grip hand might make the thumb knuckle dig into the jaw, don’t know how to get around that one. I think the M14 got one tooth because of the knuckle/jaw interface. I was so happy to leg out so I could just shoot match rifles not just because of the better sights but mainly the stock designs were so much more comfortable. The first thing I think about when I fire a hunting rifle now is “damn, hope the dental work holds”. I’m thinking about getting a “big” AR in 6.5-08 to hunt with partly because of the recoil problems with light weight conventional stocked rifles. This is a good question and I think it has to be answered before the shooter will gain consistency with any rifle.
Blind: I have in the past bit on a piece of wood, but a mouthguard makes a good deal of sense for lots of shooting. I will have to get one of those. I bet that “grind guard” thing that you sleep with would work ok!
I used the cheap ones they sell to high school football players, heat it in water and bite down on it. Do it with your head in the position you use on the gun. Your dentist might not be as busy if you use one, especially shooting some of the cannons I read about here. :^)
Good, good advice, especially for a lot of shooting. I’mna try that.
I don’t have too much tooth trouble, but I do have trouble with my cheekbones- I expect it’s the shape of my face.
If bench shooting I use as little contact pressure as possible.
Any heartbeat that effects the gun from any source will move the shot.
Trapshooting with 1250fps loads is nada felt recoil with a proper adjustible pad.
YMMV
That’s something never really thought about. Near as I can recall, I don’t tense it. Next time at the range I’ll have to pay attention to that(and you’ve probably fucked up my shooting for at least the next two weeks, dammit).
Og,
I was simply trying to help with your issue of bruising, not anything else.
What I don’t understand is your reply as I quote:
Me:
“The weld is only important for sighting; your cheek does not need to stay in contact during recoil. Allow the recoil to drive the stock away from your cheek, not into it.â€
You:
“The laws of physics not taught in your area of the world, are they?”
Well, when I got my degree in engineering about 40 years ago, I was taught that a mass at rest tends to stay at rest, etc. Is not the mass of your head trying to stay at rest when the recoil of a rifle pushes back on your shoulder? Perhaps you could educate me on the changed laws of physics that I have obviously missed since I was in college.
Truly, I have not a clue as to what your are referring in your comment about the laws if physics being different in my area (Texas).
Unless your cheek is literally glued to the stock, recoil will try to push your shoulder and upper body mass back while your head mass tends to stay in place. That should move the stock back and away from your cheek.
I shoot a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and have never gotten a cheek bruise. Shoulder bruise is another issue, which is why I reload and shoot lower power loads for fun; only use the full power ones for hunting large hogs, in which case they work quite well.
Reply via email is fine. I don’t mean to start an argument, I was just originally trying to help, and now to understand what your were meaning about the laws of physics being different in my part of the world.
Best wishes
Mike
Mike: Please apply the laws of physics to an off center load. The load is the force applied by the exit of the round from the barrel. That force goes where? No, not into the buttstock. It points to the empty space above the buttstock, unless you have the strangest firearm on the planet. Now: When a force is applied to that empty space, and resisted by the buttstock, which is not in line with the force, what happens? yes, that’s right, the muzzle climbs. And you cannot stop it from climbing. The lower the stock in relation to the centerline of the barrel, the more the muzzle will climb, and the harder it will push it into your face. here’s my 45-70. Here’s a picture of me shouldering it. Note that the centerline of the barrel is substantially above the centerline of the point of contact with my shoulder. A rough estimate would be 5.25″ The muzzle energy of the round I’m shooting is published at 3032 ft/lbs. What will the resultant force be on my cheekbone? The barrel is 24″ with a 15.75″ LOP. The rifle weighs 7.5 lbs. The Marlin, if it’s a “trapper” model, probably weighs about the same empty, but it can carry at least two more rounds than the Sabatti and does so forward, and under the barrel.
Those laws didnt change, but apparently all they taught you was linear action/reaction. That’s not happening here.
If you come to northwest indiana, and rest your cheek lightly on the stock of my Sabatti, you will bruise when you pull the trigger. You must have your face planted on it or else.
I understand the physics of my rifle. I know that if I don’t have a solid cheek weld it’s gonna hurt. And, like I asked, what I want to know is oif people tense that muscle or not?
Og
Thanks for the explanation.
Had a hard time getting to the end of it as I was drooling over the picture of your 45-70. Beautiful firearm!
My Marlin 1895 is the rifle version with the 24″ barrel (I think) and has quite a bit of weight forward which helps resist the climbing tendency you mention. Also it has the straight (English?) stock with no cheek rest. I have never noticed any tendency to slap me in the cheek with even the very heavy loads.
I do appreciate the explanation since I had no experience of the phenomena of which you spoke.
If I ever get close to northwest Indiana I may just take you up on your challenge. Lord knows, it would be worth a bruise just to get my hands on that beautiful gun!
Thanks again, and best wishes
Mike
S’cool, Mike. Love me some big caliber thumpers.