So why is it
That if a Catholic Priest diddles a kid, EVERY CATHOLIC IS EVIL, but a coach serially molests kids and they don’t go after Miss Hampstead the third grade teacher in Ord Nebraska?
Condemning a group because one of their number is a tool is asinine in the extreme, and always will be. Not all educators or coaches or priests or whatever are assholes because one or ten or a hundred are.
33 comments Og | Uncategorized
Yeah, but you have to remember: Coaches in general don’t belong to a organization that says you will suffer eternal damnation for a bunch of stuff liberals think should be taught in kindergarten as “normal”.
Therefore they don’t need to be attacked and dragged through the mud as a whole.
I have serious issues with the way the Catholic Church hierarchy handled the situation. If they would have excommunicated and handed off the few priests found guilty of that shit to the justice system it would have been the right thing to do for one, and secondly the overwhelming majority of good men in the clergy wouldn’t be vulnerable to the unjustified attacks on their integrity.
It would have also put anyone wearing a collar with those kinds of leanings on notice that their ass would be toast if they acted on it.
When you worry more about being embarrassed than doing the right thing, it will come back and bite you in the ass ten times out of ten.
The good news, Grau, is that the Church is on the forefront of dealing with this- nobody has as effective a program. MOst of what’s going on now is long term repercussions of old, old activities.
“bunch of stuff liberals think should be taught in kindergarten as “normalâ€.
Therefore they don’t need to be attacked and dragged through the mud as a whole”
THey should, if they do that.
Grau meant the double standard Og regarding “not needing to be dragged.” It’s all part of the “social” justice aspects of the Incrementals that I dealt with today. See? “If you dare say that something is wrong, well that doesn’t apply to us, but we will hold you accountable.” That’s Alinsky rule #4.
I was going to comment, but my comments were going to be approximately the same as the ones by Grau and Pascal.
It’s SO nice when others do my work for me. :D
Guess I’ll spend the time working on that novel instead….
“The Catholic Church” didn’t have anything to do with any of that, which was my point. That’s like blaming Roinald McDonald if you get a bad burger. The bad decisions were ALL MADE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.
More than the Local level. Personal descision. Where it gets bad is when authority is aware of the problem and does nothing. That is the disgcrace (sic) in this picture.
Make free will out to be the bad thing, not the best thing.
Yeah, I meant it sarcastically (sometimes hard to squeeze in text down an internet connection).
The lefties who want any moral standards not imposed by them (and in their case I use the words “moral standards” with a dump truck of salt) destroyed will use the failings of individuals in an organization they despise as weapons to destroy the organization.
IE: One police officer beats the shit out of someone unjustly, all cops are sadistic power hungry pigs.
And when they can’t find an example, they manufacture them out of whole cloth…
Prezactly. Dumb bastards. Like the dutch.
It gets better, though, because then they complain when no one follows any moral standard whatsoever, because the arguments they used to destroy traditional (God-descended) morals work even better for destroying humanist morals than they do for destroying traditional mores.
Example: “We destroyed the societal prohibition against homosexuality for JUSTICE! How DARE those perverts use the same arguments in an attempt to legitimize pedophilia?”
The better question is, why is it that when a pop music legend is alleged to diddle with kids, people seem to ignore it? The even better question is what kind of parent leaves their kid in the presence of a person such rumors are told about?
“The even better question is what kind of parent leaves their kid in the presence of a person such rumors are told about? ”
Parents that need to have their asses kicked, if you ask me.
Why does the catholic Church presume to have a handle on the problem of pedophile priests internally? If it took centuries for the problem to get as bad as it did, what makes the leaders of the church think that just because they put a “solution” in place, the problem is over and done with?
You have to look at the mind of the deviants here. The collective pedophilia system, and YES there IS a “system”, and the FBI just admitted THAT, the system is at least as good at hiding itself as most intell agencies are, maybe better.
If the “network” of the pedophiles has only just been penetrated, there’s hope for at least ending the collective power of these monsters, but to assume anything else is folly.
The only REAL solution is teaching every kid on Earth what to watch out for. We’re getting better at that, but we aren’t there yet. There are many more horrors yet to unfold.
“Why does the catholic Church presume to have a handle on the problem of pedophile priests internally?”
because they do. Six years in the seminary. Fifty years of involvement in the church. I know what I am talking about. I’m involved in the process myself.
“The only REAL solution”
No. I know exactly what the REAL solutions are. Anyone who has contact with children in the Catholic Church MUST take the classes and qualify, and MUST strictly adhere to the guidelines, and there are NO EXCEPTIONS. This is how it’s done, this is how it’s fixed. No such programs exist in any other church, to my knowledge, and so far as I know, only the Boy Scouts are doing the same thing, now.
Every Catholic in North America will eventually take the VIRTUS classes that are a requirement for any contact with children not your own, period. And the very simple tools that those classes teach are once and for all, definitive positive proof that no child will be molested, period.
Now all we have to do is get everyone to follow the rules. More eyes on it, the better, and the more people are involved, the better.
Og, is the goal of the class to teach you how to properly interact with kids, or to find another adult in the organization who is interacting improperly with the kids? The latter is the only class I can think of which might fix the problem.
The goal of the class is to establish rules for all to follow. These are very simple things, and they are always effective. I won’t teach the whole course, but here are basics:
No adult is ever alone with any child. Ever. There are always two adults present when only one child is present.
No closed door can exist where an adult and a child are together in a room.
No adult can ever escort a single child anywhere, ever. They must be accompanied by another adult, or another child, at all times.
there are a lot of very simple rules like this. there are a lot of simple rules as to what is appropriate touching (No hugging face to face. No touching of anything but hand to hand or hand to shoulder, ever)&etc. The classes are thorough, and they not only teach the proper behavior but they teach everyone to monitor and correct one another. If the rules are followed the teaching is fool PROOF.
The Boy Scouts do have child protection training, and it’s required for all registered adult leaders and recommended for all parents who aren’t leaders but who may participate in Scouting events. I had to take it last year and I believe a refresher is required every five, but don’t hold me to the latter; I just take it when they tell me it’s due.
I do think the BSA have watered down their youth protection training somewhat, though, by making it possible to take individually via the Internet. It still covers all the bases but the testing is a bit insipid (you would have to be asleep or an Occupier to fail it) and I really think YPT would be better done in a group with a facilitator to lead the class and to answer questions.
Nathan: yes, the face to face stuff is good, and it’s good to do it that way.
Do you know what works WONDERFULLY? Anytime you’re with a group of kids, for whatever reason, do a little refresher course. Who can be alone with a scoutmaster? “NO ONE!” Who can touch you anywhere you please? “NO ONE!” &etc. Our youth groups all do that at the beginning of each activity, and the kids are growing up nicely. None of them will ever be anyone’s victim on our watch.
Exactly.
I am not catholic, but I have been a volunteer girls volleyball coach at a catholic middle school for 9 years now. When I first started I had to listen to a short speech from the principal that pretty much boiled down to “keep your hands to yourself”.
Over the years their policies have changed a lot. Early on they added live scanning (fingerprinting and background checks). And more training classes on what not to do, and what to watch out for others doing. As well as training in what to look for in the kids that might indicate an abused child. This last year I was handed a paper full of very fine print the went on, and on, and on, about what not to do, what not to say, etc. As I signed it I laughed “I didn’t think there were this many ways to say keep your hands to yourself, and don’t say anything that you would be ashamed to have repeated in front of your grandma.”
I have found through the years that the best defense against even the appearance of impropriety is the involvement of the kid’s parents.
Parents are often surprised that I encourage them to stay through our practices, because a lot of other coaches in the area don’t like parents always hanging around. I tell them – I have never had to deal with complaints from parents who know me, know my coaching style, and know how I deal with their daughters. The only complaints (about coaching style) I have ever faced came from parents who are never around. I have never had to defend myself against these complaints because the parents who are always around do that for me.
As to your “No hugging face to face. No touching of anything but hand to hand or hand to shoulder, ever” rules, don’t assume that even those things are safe, or accepted. You would be amazed at how many teen, or preteen girls do not like their hands touched, nor their backs or shoulders.
I have girls who will not even high-5 me because they don’t like the contact. You have to find out with each girl where her acceptable boundrys are. Some are OK with me placing a hand on her shoulder while I am talking to her. Others will step away from any adult who gets within 2 feet of them.
As a general rule I try not to touch them at all, ever. But there are times I have to. Then I tell them exactly what I am going to do (I’m going to take a hold of your right hand and elbow and show you how I want your arm to swing towards the ball.) Then I ask their permission to proceed. I only ever do this if there are parents around. If there are not, I put that lesson off for another day.
The church is trying to be proactive in preventing abuse problems. But I still think that the best defense you have is the active involvement of the kid’s parents.
David: Reading comprehension fail. Please read where it says
“I won’t teach the whole course, but here are basics:”
Read it slowly, and carefully. Let it sink in. The course is three days long and you have to do updates every six months. It is thorough, and comprehensive. You cannot imagine how comprehensive. I’m not going to teach you the course right here to show you how comprehensive it is. I’m not going to explain that again. Understand? From reading what you’ve written, you a: have no idea what this is about, and b: don’t grasp what I’m telling you.
og: Reading comprehension fail.
Read it slowly,
and carefully.
Let it sink in.
I’m on your side here.
I have seen big strides in the way the diocese and the church have changed the way they accept volunteer help and the training and education they are expecting their volunteers and staff to go through.
They have not required your class here yet. Until reading your comments to this posting I had never heard of it. But when they do require it, I will take it because I like coaching here. But until they do require your VIRTUS class here I still maintain that active involvement of the kids parents is essential.
I also still maintain that your brief example of appropriate touching “No touching of anything but hand to hand or hand to shoulder” for some individuals will be considered inappropriate and unappreciated. And that individuals wishes must be respected.
David. You spent paragraph after paragraph telling me how youre personal ideas are more thorough than the combined work of thousands of educatiors being taught to millions of people nationwide. And you come up with gems like “I also still maintain that your brief example of appropriate touching”
OK. You completely understand the entire day two of the course wiuthout knowing anythingh about iot, from my one sentence description.
David. You know nothing about the course. You assume you understand it all because of tiny, broief descriptiosn I have given, and you do NOT. Period. You assume your personal experience outweighs that of the people who do this, and it does not. You assume you understand the process of child molestation, and you obviously do not.
I have read and understood everything you have written, and it’s all horseshit. You are NOT on my side, you are on the side of the people who “believe” they know what to do because of one person’s personal experience. Your personal experience cannot compare with the thosands of people who wrote this program and teach it. Mopst of whom were molested themselves. All of whom know exactly what it takes to get from A to B. And each of which has tried and tested the methods and the examples taught from this course, which you by definition do not understand because you have not taken it. Got it?
Let me chime in quickly about the BSA. The on-line course must be taken every two years. There are two courses, one for both Cub Scouts (6-10 year olds) and Boy Scouts (11-17 year olds) and one for Venture Crews (14-20 year olds). Each course takes about 30-45 minutes and basically goes over the rules: two deep leadership, no closed doors and pretty much everything else we talked about. Everyone who wants to be a registered leader must take the class prior to submitting an application. The keyword is registered leader.
Many adults choose not to be registered because they must supply a SSN and go through a background check. In the units I work with an adult must take the youth protection on-line course before he or she can participate in any of our activities.
Is this a perfect solution?
Absolutely NOT! It takes all adults involved to keep aware of other adult actions that might be suspect and speak out about or act against any “transgressions” that occur, with the realization that all adults involved in an activity in which such “transgression” occured, could be held criminally liable for the behavour of others.
Even with all this, I still worry.
So, does the priest leave the confessional if no one else is in the church and a teen walks in?
Seriously. Does he leave?
I called the principal of our school this morning to ask about VIRTUS classes. She told me she would have to look into that. She did not know what it was off the top of her head.
You are right – I don’t know what is in your class. I have never taken the class. All I have to go on is the training and education that the diocese here has required. My original point was that over the last 9 years I have seen that education and training changed a lot – for the better.
But they do NOT yet require the VIRTUS class here. Until they do I will have to continue getting by with the training and education that I have received and my personal experiences dealing with kids.
I’m sorry that you think that my training and experience is all horseshit. I’m sure the guardians of the few children who have been abused elsewhere, who are now in our school and on my sports team because their guardians trust us to make sure that those traumatic events do not continue or reoccur will be very disturbed to hear you don’t approve of the way we do things.
But I only have two choices here – continue doing things they way I do know, depending on my training and personal experience and wait until the adminstration continues to advance our training (VIRTUS or whatever).
Or I can quit, and start a crusade to shut down the school and send every one home until we have all been properly VIRTUS trained.
I hope you will understand if I choose option 1.
So I am not on your side?
I am on the side of teaching children to be better athletes and better people. I am on the side of teaching them to value a heathly lifestyle that includes smart food choices, exercise, sports, competiton and teamwork. And I am on the side of ensuring that they have a safe environment in which to learn these things. Which side are you on?
David, the first thing you have to do is to listen, and you have not yet done so. Until you do, there is no point in any further discussion.
Now that I’m at a computer, let me expand on this, because this is important to me. In the discussion you have said things like “I also still maintain that your brief example of appropriate touching “No touching of anything but hand to hand or hand to shoulder†for some individuals will be considered inappropriate and unappreciated. And that individuals wishes must be respected.”
At no point did I say this was the ONLY rule. Reading comprehension fail
At no point did i say there were not mitigating circumstances that changed this rule. Reading comprehension fail.
At several points I said ‘I cannot teach the whole class here”. You specifically took one comment I made and considered a baseline as representative of the whole class. there was an entire day’s discussion voted to physical contact. have you managed to comprehend that whole day’s discussion from my one comment? of course you have not. You have jumped to an erroneous conclusion based not on what I said or didn’t say, but on your own feelings.
Unless you have taken the course, you cannot judge it. So just on this one point, where your comment quoted above, you have not only judged on something you cannot and demonstrably do not know, but try to instruct me on something I clearly know more about than you will ever. I have been on the inside and out of this with clergy, lay people, family members, and others, for more than forty years. I understand the mechanisms intimately. I also understand the resources, and the proposed solutions, and I also understand the limitations. The greatest limitation is people- like yourself- who are quick to criticise and evaluate something that they cannot and do not understand, and replace it with their own “beliefs”. there is no room for belief in this discussion. period. I have none, and will brook none.
It’s all so sad. Sad because a quick perusal of VIRTUS verifies that it is intended, primarily, to protect the adult by ensuring the adult never, ever places themself into a position or situation where they can be accused.
Sad, too and mostly, because this is the way it now has to be.
Indeed, it’s sad that you can judge the program so efficiently with ‘A quick perusal”. You are of course incorrect, because actually becoming involved (instead of “quickly perusing”)will show you that the whole point, as the websites state over and over and over again, that “The goal of our VIRTUS® programs is to help prevent, address, and mitigate wrongdoing in the faith community. Dioceses across the country and throughout the Caribbean have implemented our Protecting God’s Children® programs, a set of programs designed to help adults become protectors of children, and to help communities provide safe environments for children.”
Arcs: I didn’t mean to be snarky, and apologize; I understand what you mean, but the program really is about protecting kids.
I have been beat around SO much about this; the Church isn’t doing this or that or the other thing correct/enough yadda yadda, when almost NO other organization is doing a damned hting, and child molestation is common in all churches, but it’s easy to beat up on Catholics. I’m just sick to death of it.
The whole scandal was manufactured by the church itself to distract attention from the mind control nanobots they’re planting in the communion wafers!
[/StooopidConspiracy]
(odd sense of humor turned off)
It’s really not sad that the VIRTUS program is designed to protect the adult from litigation if the end result is that it removes all opportunities for the children to be harmed in the process.
I consider that a Win-Win.
I consider that a Win-Win.
Indeed, Grau. Indeed.
These are not the mind control nanobots you’re looking for.
I was gonna say what Graumagus said. I’m not saying the program is “bad” for children. If it prevents abuse, it’s obviously good to that extent.
But hear this. There will be something very valuable lost if the program removes all possibility of one-on-one interaction between an adult and a non-adult in striving to remove all predatory possibilities. I don’t know how to qualify or quantify that but I know it to be.