The older I get
The less likely I am to be surprised by anything. Once in a while, though, because of a lifetime of experiences good or bad, a bunch of individual thought legos snap together in a way they never did before, and instead of a handful of caltrops, they merge and become a structure with meaning and sense.
A recent snide comment (Deleted summarily; if you want to discuss something here that’s fine but if you’re gonna be an ass you pixies get thrown out through the door or through the window) by a past commenter about the occasion of death made me think of something in a way I never thought before, and though it is a simple concept it took a morning’s woolgathering for it to assemble itself in my head.
I have never personally known a violent anti-theist who did not have something bad going on. I had been under the impression that they just had strong opinions on the subject, but as I drove to work this morning I reflected on the seven or eight vocal anti-theists I have known well (at least, more than casual acquaintence) there is a patricide, a child molester, an abuser of women, a harpy whose extramarital affairs are legendary, and people who have done far worse things. There was only one I knew who didn’t have one of those skeletons in her closet, and she recently passed; ater her passing I learned- quite accidentally- of her “skeleton”. Yikes.
I also know people who have done those things who are devout and faithful; it clearly isn’t the actions that cause the anti-theism.
It made me wonder: Is the anti-theism a wish, a dream that their actions, their immorality, their hatred will have no consequences? I pondered that a good deal this AM. The pieces fit together pretty well. I’mna have to spend some more time looking at this.
As someone who spends a lot of time looking at patterns, this is a behavioral pattern that does not surprise me, not a bit. But it does enlighten me. If your “belief” that there can be no redemption from your transgression is stronger than your faith can ever be, I can see how you’d want to destroy God with your words.
36 comments Og | Uncategorized
I’ve thunk on that as well.
A different take, but I think it’s kind of a defensive mechanism with some folks; they can’t face what will/would be required of them if they confront the responsibility of their actions.
I think it might be that they believe they will truly be ultimately and finally judged and brought to justice for their actions and like small children screaming “no”, they try to unmake that which will punish them.
It can’t be merely a coincidence.
If there is no right, then there is no wrong.
It can’t be a coincidence. Although which is the cause and which is the effect is difficult to determine. Do they deny God as an attempt to escape judgment? Or do they behave as they do out of a belief that there is no higher power? I suspect the former.
I don’t think anti-theists (not the same thing as atheists) really believe there is no God. Why would anyone fight so hard against something they believed did not exist?
“I don’t think anti-theists (not the same thing as atheists) really believe there is no God.”
I call it the Tinkerbell syndrome. If enough people clap their hands, maybe G-d will go away.
Could be, I suppose.
I’m an atheist, but not an anti-theist, let alone a violent one, and I know I have no such wish.
(For that matter, the existence of a God would be kinda awesome, especially if said God operated along Origenist lines.)
Notice please that anti-theists tend to be more “anti-Christian” than anti-theist….
Indeed, Ed. And Sigi, I welcome atheists, but the anti-theists are just asses most of the time.
Interesting point, but I’m not sure about the nature of the connection. There are a number of atheists of every stripe in my town. (Liberal Arts University…) I know a few anti-theists who consider themselves secular humanists. They do what is right because they believe that what they do is all that they will ever be. God is not on their side, and they can’t fall back on the gift of divine forgiveness. I think both good and bad people explain and justify their actions with their beliefs; we all act according to our conscience (or the lack thereof) and most of us either credit God or defy Him.
By “Anti theist” I mean anyone who specifically states that God does not exist and anyone who has any faith in God is an idiot and subhuman. Are we talking about the same people, Suz?
As a member of Compassionate Friends, I’ve wonder how an atheist could deal with the loss of a child?
If I didn’t have my faith, I wouldn’t be alive today.
It’s as simple as that because if I thought for even the slightest moment there was no life after physical death on this earth, no punishment for our sins, no redemption from all forgiving, all seeing God, then I would have killed myself long ago.
I’ve met two people at Compassionate Friends and I wanted to ask them each a number of these questions, but the first had his hurt was so fresh, so deep and so grievous that I feared what my questions might induce?
The second saw no hope at all in life and I often wondered if he truly thought that way, why didn’t he kill himself? He certainly was living a life without any joy or happiness. His was a miserable existance and while my grief was deep and has remained so, I have always taken consolation in my faith.
For in my darkest moments I have truly had the feeling I WAS NOT ALONE.
I can’t believe that any of the people you know as “anti theist” have ever buried one of their children, but if they do, I would like to know how their beliefs helped them?…
All The Best,
Frank W. James
If someone sneezes in the presence of an anti-theist, what does the anti-theist say?
I try to be tolerant of everyone’s belief or non-belief as long as they don’t impose their values on me. My favorite Bible verse is Psalm 144.
Mr James: OI have had that conversation, recently, and the individual in question took the situation as proof that God did NOT exist. The idea thatGod would “let” stuff happen to children, he argued, was proof that God could not exist. I thought the whole argument was facile on it’s face, and it made me wonder what horrible secret that person harbored- which was part of what prompted this post.
I’m with you. Knowing that I can never be alone is a huge deal.
I’ve often thought something similar — about the judgement and the desire to make the judging person go away by wishful thinking.
And, of course (as you probably know) when delusional people are disabused of their notions, they sometimes tend to get violent.
And I think you’re right; it’s not so much that they don’t believe, or believe otherwise, it’s that they do and they fear the judgement.
M
My findings, and your mileage may vary, the more educated some one is, the more likely they are agnostic/antitheist/athest.
I think it comes from being divorced from mother nature. It can also come from excessive smarts. They are usually very narcisitic and, in an old term, snotty.
They all suffer from the fallacy that the world shall end when they die. If they die. In my experience many have suffered from a god complex, even though they cannot create a world from whole cloth with heir breath nor bring anything back from the dead.
They believe in the primacy of science which is slowing proving the god myth true.
They all expect the world to be a nice place because we are all good.
I am constantly torn with the christian idea of forgiven them and billyjacks idea of kicking the holy living snot out of them.
I’m going to the range now for some therapy.
Yes we’re talking about the same people. My boss is one of them. She doesn’t think I’m sub-human, but she thinks I’m silly and irrational for believing in God. (I can respect people who choose not to have an opinion about the existence of God, but you should have seen her face the day I told her that her certainty that there is no God is every bit as irrational as my certainty that there is!) She is also one of the most moral people I know. So is her husband, and so are many of his colleagues, even though they believe that God absolutely does not exist.
Some people are just plain evil, no matter what they believe about God. I personally know far more nasty, vicious Christians than nasty, vicious atheists, but I’m pretty sure Christianity doesn’t make them evil, even if they use their faith against others.
I’ve debated some arrogant and malicious internet trolls who come from both sides of the argument. Their weapon is not the “belief,” it’s the anonymity; they like to hurt people. They don’t care who and they don’t care why.
I’m not sure sweeping generalizations such as those in the original post here as well as those in the comments do anyone any good.
There are probably less violent anti-thiests than there are crazy and violent christians, muslims, or hindu.( this is apparently NOT A SWEEPING GENERALIZATION) If going by general percentages, simply because there are more of them in a given population sample, I’d speculate that there are many many more violent thiests willing to do horrible things in the name of their deity.(Even though this even INCLUDES THE WORD SPECULATE it is NOT A SWEEPING GENERALIZATION)
Azreel: really? Sweeping genrralizations? Can you quote one i made? I can quote several you made. Why are yours good and mine bad?
Suz: no. Thats an atheist. You havent met what i consider an antitheist.
Og, I was referring primarily to your comment “If your “belief†that there can be no redemption from your transgression is stronger than your faith can ever be, I can see how you’d want to destroy God with your words” which though phrased as a hypothetical, implicitly states your conclusion that all anti-theists have a desire to “destroy God”.
There are many other sweeping generalizations in the comments as well.
As far as my comments, they’re not generalizations, they are the same dogma espoused by those thiests. When you follow a book that demands blood for a jealous god, how can you not have zealots ready to do violence? Given that a majority of the world’s population is either christian, hindu, or muslim, statistics show that you WILL have more followers of those faiths who are violent.
I am an agnostic not because I need proof that god does or does not exist, but because I cannot look at myself in the mirror and truthfully say I have faith either way.
That said, I’m starting to have a creeping feeling that there has to be a divine being of some sort, because there is too much happening that can only be the work some something messing with us for it’s own amusement.
I have a sneaking feeling that if anyone ever actually figured out the whole truth, the forces that be would change the rules. Because they can :)
Some something = of something. Hard to type while scarfing down a homemade breakfast burrito…
Og, I have met a few of the people you call “anti-theists.” I have also met deists of the same mentality. This is the internet! Every possible type of wacko is out there. The driving force behind these people seems to be a rejection of humanity, in that have some “justification” for anything they choose to do or say; anti-theists’ rejection of God is incidental. Evil is evil, regardless of belief.
As my old philosophy prof used to say “Let’s define our terms”. Lots of arguments (discussions)founder because we aren’t all talking about the same thing. What does “God” mean to the person holding forth? For an interesting discussion about “What is death” it is enlightening to discuss “what is life itself”. Always it is amazing what people think/believe.
So, atheists, anti-theists, and believers often find common ground if, and I say if, they include nature, love, spirituality, conscience, and mystery in their discussions. Hard, sharp belief almost always has a crack in it somewhere.
Sam
Suz: have your “Anti theists” suggested that all Christians be sent to re-education camps, or that all churches should be burned, preferably with the faithful in them, or that people should have the “god bullshit Tortured out of them”?
Azreel: My comment is phrased as a hypothetical BECAUSE IT’S A HYPOTHETICAL.
I am NOT responsible for the voices in your head, nor your preconceptions. Do not attempt to blame me for your prejudices. Read what I wrote, not what you think. Your comments are ALL sweeping generalization.
I came here to spew bullshit, and my bullshit was summarily deleted.
Hey, SOMEBODY has to be responsible for the voices in m- ah, Az’s head! Why not you?
Somewhat related: group I used to be part of met at a Unitarian church; one night I said something along the lines of ‘God help us’ and a lady-on the board of the church- took me to task for it. “You shouldn’t say that.”
What?
“God.”
Pause. We’re in a church.
“But not everyone believes in God.”
Pause. How ’bout I say ‘goddess’?
“That’s ok.”
Some of the anti-theists remind me of people like her: desperately wanting a spiritual life but terrified of being non-pc in any way.
good lord.
Don’t now about that but I’ve lived long enough to notice that anyone who defends an immoral, unethical or illegal practice is almost guarandamnteed to be engaged in the practice they are defending.
“…all Christians be sent to re-education camps, or that all churches should be burned, preferably with the faithful in them, or that people should have the “god bullshit Tortured out of themâ€?
No, but I’ve heard Christians say that about gays, atheists and disobedient women; In fact, Christianity has a well established history of such shenanigans. Isn’t that a fair description of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.
I can guarantee that if your sicko troll has a dream tonight that convinces him God is real, by this time next week he will be among those very same Christians, trolling atheist and gay websites. And he will believe he has the power of God backing him up.
“I have never personally known a violent anti-theist who did not have something bad going on.”
I have never known a violent (or extreme, if that’s what you meant) person of any persuasion, who did not have something bad going on. This troll’s problem is not that he doesn’t believe in God (although that may be a contributing factor) his problem is that he is arrogant, delusional, inhumane and evil. Changing his beliefs would not change his personality, it would merely change his choice of victim.
I do not know that there is a God.
But I do know that there are people who claim to speak for Him.
But even worse, are those who not only deny Him, but deride Him and the good ethic attributed to Him, so that they can play god themselves without contradiction.
The anti-theist is the demigod’s useful idiot. I grew up hearing the refrain “look at how many have been killed in the name of God.” Yet after the history of the 20th Century, where hundreds of millions were murdered in attempting to force Man’s Godless utopias, there are still fools who not only don’t notice that, they actually deny that it was worse.
That was but a warm-up for what is on the horizon in the 21st if you dodos do not wake up. The problem was not God, but men who hate that others still turn to Him.
Suz:
“No, but I’ve heard Christians say that about gays, atheists and disobedient women;”
No, you have not. If someone would say those things, they are by definition, not Christians. They may be pretending to be, but they are not. Those attitudes define non Christian behavior.
Then again, they may just be stupid.
Og, you’re right.
Their vile hatred has nothing to do with their beliefs about God.
“The problem was not God, but men who hate that others still turn to Him.”
Pacal… a summary with great merit!