A question for Athiests
And this is not meant to be smartassed so I will delete any smartassed answer.
If you’re unwilling to accept that there is awareness behind the creation of the Universe, why is it that you can easily accept that all this shit showed up by itself, unbidden?
43 comments Og | Uncategorized
I’m not exactly an atheist, close enough for government work though, and this is not a smart ass answer: because there is no evidence for any other explanation.
Like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle said, ‘Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.’
So…if it was not created, than it had to just show up by itself, unbidden. I mean…it’s either one of those two, correct?
Now…my answer may invalid, since I do not hold myself as an athiest. My mom was a Presbyterian, my dad was Jewish, and so they split the difference and raised us as Commercialists.
If pressed, I identify myself as Agnostic. I believe there is a Higher Power..I just have a hard time lableing it. I go to church regulary with my wife(who is Saved)…I was just raised Jewish enough that I lack the faith to fully participate. I feel there are many good, positive to be lessons to be learned in Church, and the Bible, I just tend to look at it as a good book of lessons vice the True Word of God, and so I sit politely during Communion.
Sorry to hi-jack things.
Question: If you don’t believe in God, then why do you hate Him so much?
yeah, hale, that’s one of those wierd things. I call it the “You’re not the boss of me” syndrome, people whose egos refuse to allow them to admit there’s someone better than them.
Greg: By your logic, isn’t it equally possible that the universe was a side effect of the gravitational force caused by huge piles of underwear collected by underpants gnomes? That bit of so called “logic” from doyle was a great literary device, but doesn’t hold water in the real world.
JD: If there’s no evidence for “Creator=1” then there is also no evidence for “Creator=0”. However, there is reason. Has there ever been anytime in recorded history that anything anywhere has ever shown up unbidden? Consider this syllogism:
1: The universe was either created or showed up unbidden
2: Nothing ever shows up unbidden
3: The Universe was created.
Can anyone find any flaw in that that isn’t an emotion driven “There is no God because I say so so shut up”?
Not at all an atheist, but I can address part of the issue.
Science deals with what can be measured and repeated. The area in which measurements can be repeatably made is known as “The Universe”. By definition, anything outside the universe is not measurable. God is outside the universe, therefore He is not only not measurable, He is outside the scope of science.
An example I’ve always liked: suppose I decide to measure the acceleration of gravity. I get a weight, climb to my roof, measure the distance from roof to ground, drop the weight and measure how long it takes to hit the ground. If I drop the weight and a seagull sees it, grabs it, holds it for three seconds and drops it, that does NOT change the acceleration of gravity, something which was not part of the experiment intervened. Further, if I drop the weight 100, or 1,000, or 1,000,000 times and a seagull never grabs it, that does NOT disprove the existence of seagulls.
Mark,
God is clearly outside of our limited understanding. But even “science”, only claims to have a limited understanding of the universe and that there are certainly more in it than science can describe. Thus “science” is constantly theorizing things like strings and dark matter to help fill in the gaps.
“But even “scienceâ€, only claims to have a limited understanding ”
lol. That’s the part most atheists I know miss. They just substitute “Science” for “God” without an understanding of the inseperability of the two.
I experience the natural world. I have never experienced anything outside it- that is to say anything supernatural.Religion insists on supernatural causation but I see no evidence of it unless one were to infer supernatural causation because we lack a complete natural explanation for our existence. Chalking up our existence to God is invoking the supernatural.
By the way, I am an atheist, but that does not mean I am anti- religion. My wife is Jewish, I was raised a Lutheran, I just see religion as a comforting fairy tale, but I do like some of the value systems of most religions, these values are common sense human values.
Good question Og. My standard question to atheists has always been, “then how do you explain mathematics and music?” I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer yet.
My conversations usually end up with the big bang. My question then is “If a system that was stable for ages suddenly explodes, what caused it?” The five minutes before the big bang are unanswerable from their “I believe in Sc–nc- argument. (with apologies to the G-D folks)
de…STxRynn
What JD said.
(Contra OG’s Cosmological Argument, note that that doesn’t help theists either.
If Everything Requires A Cause, you don’t get to say “well, except God because shut up” any more than atheists get to say “because the universe Just Always Was so there!*”
I fully accept that reason can’t answer the question of first causes, unlike some (especially capital-A) atheists.
Neither religion nor (to use the crudest and not strictly accurate, but shortest, counter) reason can answer that with anything that doesn’t boil down to “we don’t know” or “because God/Everything Just Always Existed”.
This neither undermines religion nor irreligion, thus.
* I think that’s unbelievably more likely, if only because I still don’t see any evidence for a creator, let alone an un-created one, and thus the “the universe just always existed, as far as we can tell” answer has the advantage of being the Occam’s Razor alternative; it requires no multiplication of entities … that would still rest on “Because God always existed”.
But I don’t for a second think that it’s even theoretically possible to prove that proposition.)
Brian: Ever have- say, an orc show up in your basement, or all of a sudden you had a 24″ cock? I’mna guess that the answer to both is a resunding “no”. Either of those things happening would be considered “Supernatural” or “magic”.
So you are unwilling to accept the presence of God, but you are perfectly willing to accept that magic occurs. because all this shit is here. You have hands on the ends of your arms, I assume. There is bedrock underneath your neighborhood. The sun sometimes shines on you. And those things “Just are” Right? you just “Experience” them, they never came from anywhere. So that argument for atheism is just ignorance. That’s kinda what I thought.
“If Everything Requires A Cause, you don’t get to say “well, except God because shut up†any more than atheists get to say “because the universe Just Always Was so there!*â€
Tell me how anything can not have a cause. Show your work. I’m serious, give me any explanation at all that can account for something showing up unbidden.
““the universe just always existed, as far as we can tell†answer has the advantage of being the Occam’s Razor alternative; ”
That is an heroic misunderstanding of ockhams razor. From Wikipedia, just because it’s easiest to research:
“among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.”
Lets look at this:$value_ God=1: God (Or some entity beyond our understanding) is responsible for creation. Simple, easy explanation. Perfect application of ockhams Razor.
Now: $value_ God=0: All of the universe always existed/existed because of some cataclysmic “big bang” event.
This requires a value for “Always” which we can not know. Alternately,it requires a way which a “big bang” event can a: happen spontaneously, b: generate enormous quantities of matter from nothing (magic again) and that’s just the beginning. Past that you have to also be willing to accept that natural law just is and had no author, and that the complexity of all creation from the humblest sandstone to the most complex machination of the human mind is simply an accident.
the entities you must multiply to make the universe absent G-d are almost infinite. the existence of a creator is the simplest (And thus the only, according to Ockhams Razor) solution.
The question is: “If you’re unwilling to accept that there is awareness behind the creation of the Universe, why is it that you can easily accept that all this shit showed up by itself, unbidden?”
While I cannot make a clear claim to being an atheist I have not accepted the notion of God that matches that of any religion with which I am familiar.
Regarding the question… I fail to see the difference between acceptance of either “created” or “unbidden.” Each is merely a leap of faith since neither can be proven or disproven.
I also fail to see how those among us who have faith that the universe exists because “God created it” get to demand, from those who do not share that particular faith, an explanation for how the universe came into existence.
“I do not know the impetus for the creation of the universe, I just know that God did it” is no more logically valid (or invalid) than “I do not know the impetus for the creation of the universe, I just know that physics did it.”
Knuckle: Way to miss the entire point. You fail to see the difference because you’re paying attention to the voices in your head, and not the question I asked.
“I do not know the impetus for the creation of the universe, I just know that God did itâ€
Please copy/paste where I said this, implied it, or expected anyone to accept it. I did not. I am not responsible for the voices in your head or what they tell you I said, only for the actual words I wrote, which are no where near your prejudices. Once again, a classic case of ignorance being the foundation of most Atheism.
Evolution cannot be proved and it is the king pin of the big bang theory.
Sure, we find fossils, but not in the chain it would take to prove evolution.
Some of those guys questioning things in the late 1800 have made a really large mess in the current line of thought.
Science is all well and good till it is used to explain something that cannot be proved. It you can’t prove it then that is not the answer.
I believe in God and also follow the premise everything we see is a result of his creation.
Here’s some science:
http://youtu.be/JnWyPIzTOTw
Thanks, all of you, now my head hurts from reading and trying to understand this… I guess I am just simple. I believe in one true God, who created everything from the beginning and perhaps the best way we can explain it to our human minds is to say it was a big bang…one does not exclude the other. Perhaps we are not supposed to understand it as that would make us as smart as God and that is an impossibility…translations and misunderstanding… I think that is why Jesus said, “Come unto me like the little children” we do not have to ex-plain it, we just need to accept it.. and have faith. I do.
Paulb, rdennis, I think you’ll like that link.
Og, if I woke up with 24″ cock, I’d KNOW that there was a God.
I’ll hazard an answer at risk of ridicule. I’ve been conflicted all my life regarding faith, existence and an afterlife. I was raised by non-religious parents, but sent to Catholic school when Florida schools de-segregated in the 1960’s. I incline more toward agnosticism than any other belief system.
I can’t reason backward in time infinitely; at some point, it seems to me, existence must have begun. Having posited that, you then must posit a creative force; let’s personalize it and call it Creator. Was there nothing before Creator? If not, how is that possible? Beats the hell out of me. So: Creator creates, and the universe comes into being. Why? Creator was lonely and wanted worshipers? Maybe Creator was just bored and wanted entertainment? Maybe Creator sees the universe as a sort of endlessly spinning kaleidoscope, changing in a unique way from moment to moment, endlessly fascinating for Creator, but perhaps boring to those of us without Creator’s attention span.
So: A Creator? I’m willing to believe a Creator. The rest of it? Afterlife of any sort, origin stories accurate, belief in avatars of the Creator? Not proven. No guarantee even after death.
Robert:
“The rest of it?”
Really?
Look, guys. it’s impossible to have a conversation about this if you keep answering the questions asked by the voices in your heads. I didn’t ask about ‘The rest of it”, I asked a simple question. Why is the idea of a creator ludicrous but the idea of spontaneous generation sane? So far nobody has answered that question, concentrating instead on questions I pointedly did not ask. This is why we can never have nice things.
Well, here’s a conundrum- if everything that exists requires a creator, and a creator exists, then he/it also requires a creator. Why should it stop with God? Who or what is responsible for his existence?
I am profoundly grateful for the fact of my existence and don’t take it for granted. If there were a god, I prefer to think he’d be magnanimous enough to understand my skepticism, unlike the jealous god of the old testament that I believe is a human construct.
Brian: Can nobody answer the actual question?
let me clarify this for you.
Nowhere did I state that or imply it or ask if it was true or false. If you’re determined to have that discussion, we could have it, but that is not this discussion.
Not the question I’m asking. Not part of the question. Not related to the question in any way, not pertinent to the question not data I need or want or asked for at this time.
If there were a God, by definition his motives, reasons, actions and in fact everything about him would be, also by definition, completely incomprehensible to you. To assign human values or motives to a definitively supreme being is the height of human hubris. Also, not related to the question, at all.
No part of my question involves the old testament, the new testament, the koran, the talmud, the apocrypha, the book of changes, no humans, no human authors, no nothing. At no point did I suggest anything about any of this, and at no point was I looking for an answer to any of these questions. it further illustrates my increasing confidence in the idea that most Atheism is based on misdirection and ignorance.
Prof. Hale,
I think you might be projecting, I don’t hate god, I can’t hate something that I don’t believe exists. Humans have striven mightily to explain their origins, to the point of making up all sorts of fairy tales. That to me is the basis of religion. I don’t feel compelled to accept a deity responsible for all of existence. I know that I’m here, now, and for that I am grateful. Life is wonderful and amazing. The fact that I won’t live forever is too bad, but that’s the way it is for all living things. You want to know what happens when you die, go look at something that’s dead. It’s a hard truth, but there it is. I don’t need to make up a fairy tale to shield me from it.
Brian: So you really really do just hate god. That makes a lot of things easier to understand about atheism.
As an aside…
I think what clouds the issue in this discussion is the simple fact that most of the responders are wrestling with their experiences with ORGANIZED religion.
As for me, I’m a man that prays fervently and hopes that my many, many, MANY sins will be forgiven when I kick the bucket…
Irontom wins the thread for at least a coherent aside. Doesn’t answer the question, but is meaningful nonetheless.
I would be willing to bet the answer lies in some combination of (silly) human pride, hubris, ignorance, and or stupidity.
And I also concur with Irontom above.
Og- You are jumping to a conclusion- I don’t hate something that I don’t know exists. Just like I don’t hate bigfoot or unicorns. There are plenty of religions and Deities out there, You believe in all of them but one. You don’t hate the ones you don’t believe in. I just believe in one less Deity than you do. Unlike a few unfortunate militant atheists, I don’t harbor any animosity towards religion, except when it motivates screwed up behavior. Militant Islam and the Spanish Inquistions are examples of this. I”m perfectly OK with my lack of faith in a deity. I’m OK with my mortality. That seems to bother some people of faith. Why?
Ok, I re-read the question- your question starts with the assumption that there is an awareness behind the creation of the universe. I don[‘t make that assumption, so I guess that disqualifies me from offering an answer.
Religious belief requires faith that there is something outside of nature.
“Ok, I re-read the question- your question starts with the assumption that there is an awareness behind the creation of the universe. ”
No, you did not re read it. You are deliberately choosing to misunderstand because understanding challenges you. You have understood nothing, and that’s a shame. My question starts with zero assumptions and asks only one thing, and you cannot answer it because you fear the answer.
Brooks: Sure, if you’re an idiot. Normal sane people don’t suffer under the delusion that shit just appears. Again, only ignorance can be at the root of most atheism. And fear of a creator, and hubris.
As I expected. So far, all I see is that the only answer Atheists have is “you guys are DUMB! All that shit is just made up!” when asked a straightforward question that doesnt’ involve any of those things. And yes, at least Brooks did have a statement that was a sort of an answer:
So, in Brooksverse, the entire sum of matter in the universe just showed the fuck up, or always existed. Now, as we know, nothing ever just shows up, that would be magic, so it must have always existed. And yet, it’s simple to show that things don’t always exist, I didn’t always exist, nor did the robin outside my window, or the plastic keyboard in front of me, or the Sierra Madre, or the space station. Things get created and destroyed all the time. Look at physics for that- oh, and the laws of physics apparently just existed, always will, always have, and the inherent properties of matter and energy, those just showed up or always existed. Yeah, again, if you’re a moron.
And no, nobody has to assume anything. But everyone does, and it certainly seems to be logcal and reasoning to assume that there is an awareness behind creation. It certainly seems to me to be more logical to assume that there is awareness behind creation than to assume that everything, including natural law and all the complexity of matter, energy, and life in the universe, just showed up one day (Since we can daily show that nothing just shows up) or was always here (since we can prove nothing was ever always here).
Here, Brooks. I’ll do this so even you can understand, and I’ll use small words so you can’t fuck it up.
God=no.
Where all stuff come from?
See if you can begin to answer that without relying on discussions of any religion or what it believes. See if you can give some kind of a rational explanation for were or how anything exists absent any creator.
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Brooks: it’s apparent you cannot and will not answer questions I ask. Nothing else you have to say interests me in the least.
So, you continue to miss the mark by as far as is possible.
What you’re saying is, you don’t “believe” in God. Instead, you “believe” that the whole of the universe, known and unknown, sprang forth, with the laws of nature, chemistry, physics, etc. all fully formed and waiting around for Humans to discover, at some cataclysmic “Big bang” that happended all by itself, with no intervention, for no reason, and you have no spaceship to travel back in time with to verify this theory, but you willinly accept it, because it is better than being wrong about God.
I see.
I’m not surprised. Human nature always wants something for nothing, and the biggest “Free lunchers” are the athiests, who want to enjoy the benefits of all creation without the peskiness of a creator. Or in other words, my imaginary universe is better than your imaginary friend.
BTW, the spam filter is deleting comments, not me. But brian/brooks, nice try. Maybe I’d retrieve some of those comments if they were on topic. fact is, you have gone through all kinds of contortions (Including sock puppeting? Really?) to make me wrong, and you just show yourself to be a fool. You refer to mysterious sources that ‘prove” your position (Though, as usual, not any kind of an answer to the question) without any real data, no different from the gloebull warmening fools. I was born at night, but not last night. Want to convince me? Bring something to the table. So far all you got is lies you tell yourself to feel comfortable with your ignorance.
As for “Thanks for reminding me God doesn’t exist because you’re a big meanie”… Really? are you actually three? Blaming Christianity for your ignorance.. isn’t that sort of a recursive stupid? Trust me. I do not call you a moron because I am Christian. I call you a moron because it is an accurate term to describe someone with your lack of intellect or ability to use it.
“I asked a simple question. Why is the idea of a creator ludicrous but the idea of spontaneous generation sane?”
Maybe it is because the idea of a creator makes people feel like they, and/or their lives, are being controlled, while the idea of spontaneous generation makes people feel that they, not a creator, are in control of their own lives.
A concise and interesting way to put it. Sort of an adult (Well, barely) “You’re not the boss of me”
Okay, I will try again. Let’s see if this get’s through whatever filter is preventing me from posting.
I retrieved it from the spam filter
The universe appears to be about 13 billion years old and seems to have come from an event we call the Big Bang, where all the matter and energy of the universe was concentrated in a tiny point and exploded out from there. What existed before that or where this matter and energy came from, I cannot say for certain. There is a theory that a virtual particle which appears from nothing and goes back to nothing, became real and expanded exponentially from there. As far as I know, this theory has good support.
Please copy/paste the part of my original post where I asked you to explain your theory about the universe, the big bang, your uncertainty, or what you know.
Of course, you cannot, because I did not.
So there is good evidence for the Big Bang and the virtual particle theory has good support, as far as I know.
So some guy told you something that you believe, though that guy has no proof, only a theory, so that makes it right. And other morons believe it too, so since a lot of people believe this unprovable theory, that makes it right for sure.
Is this the answer you wanted?
No. Try reading the question. I know it’s hard, because the voices in your head keep telling you it’s some other question, but it is not.
I am sorry if you don’t like the fact that other people have different ideas of where the universe came from than you do. Just because we don’t share your religious views, it doesn’t make us bad people, selfish, uncaring, evil. It just means that we see things a little differently than you do.
You’re not sorry about anything. You think I’m an idiot becuase I believe in Yaweh. Of course, you’re wrong, because I don’t “believe” in anything at all, so far as I know, and if i found myself believing in anything I would excise that belief as quickly as I could. I, on the other hand, want to know why atheists- especially militant atheists- are so willing to “believe” (and believe is the correct word, because all the “Explanations” they have for the origin of the universe are improvable conjecture) that the vast and massive complexity of the universe either always existed or spontaneously generated, as infinitely unlikely as that is, rather than accept that there might have been awareness behind creation.
Hope that helps.
I’m sure it helps you convince yourself how mentally superior you are. Mostly it shows what an illogical moron you are, and how dim your awareness is. But have fun with that.
God = no
stuff = no
Course I am not an Athiest so the question was not directed to me, and I am sure the Athiests will not answer the question with out subterfuge and misdirection.
Paul: That’s all I saw from Brooks and “Brian” his sockpuppet. I wonder if he thinks I’m so stupid (because I believe in Yaweh, of course) that I couldn’t see that posts from two different people were originating from the same IP?
And Brian/Brooks: yeah, your brother, Uh huh. Who just happens to live with you. Indeed.
No further comments of yours will be retrieved from spam because that is where they belong. I have never condescended nor insulted, I have reported the facts that I saw. You cannot have a coherent conversation because you cannot answer the questions you are asked- as Paul says, all you have is misdirection and subterfuge.