Also just because
the idea of ‘Debate” among most people seems to consist of “yell as many bad things as you can about the other guy until he backs down”, here’s a very good definition of Debate.. I will take anyone on, any time, using those rules. Remember, if you make a statement you must be willing to offer proof of it’s veracity, positive or negative. Please, come debate me.
23 comments Og | Uncategorized
Snerk… Good luck with that Og, I doubt you’ll get any takers… Personally, I like the debait version! :-) Throw debait, catch defish…
Lol. NFO, you rock as always.
Oh, *Og.* :)
Please list the unsupportable accusations I have made against you. Use quotes, as I did with your line that claims there is an anti-religion gay agenda.
No sweat. I am headed to dinner now. There will be quite a few and you will not like it one bit. You have a couple hours to appeal to my better angels, otherwise by morning there will be a treasure trove. Be sure this is what you want.
And of course the anti religion agenda is a verifiable fact.
Just ask Ann B. She is all over that one.
I do like me some fireworks.
A verifiable fact? Then why is it you never cite any source for it? (Also, we’re talking about a demographic that can’t even agree to hold their Pride/Stonewall stuff on the same weekend in June and you’re making like Joe McCarthy? At least he had Whittaker Chambers and Alger Hiss.)
I have cited sources. You have conveniently avoided clicking on the links.
here’s a few you can avoid right now. Don’t read these because they could destroy your illusions. Me, I have none.
Oh, don’t forget this one. It’s old, but I like it because it’s so demonstrative of the wonderful, kind, and totally awesome nature of Teh Gays. For the rest, search for a post onm your birthday
First one is in Denmark: no First Amendment. You been a Dane long?
Please tell me when I said anything about this being an issue of this country alone? I didnt’? Oh, that’s right.
Second link: UK, no First Amendment, confrontation between one priest and one parishioner. Priest may be creeped out by the letter but *he’s* not disagreeing with his church’s edicts. But hey, it does got the gay marriage thing. Not seeing how British civil ceremonies affect a religious bond or weaken any church. (Hey, you know what’s been around longer than the British Crown? Hint, it’s headquartered in Rome)
let’s see: Where did I say this was about the first amendment. Oh, thats right, I didn’t
Third link: so, where’s the gay marriage in that one?
So, when you say “There is no gay agenda” the only thing I’m allowed to comment on is gay marriage. I see. other bits of the gay agenda must be ignored because, well, because you said so.
Fourth Link: Bigot vs. bigot! I’ll make popcorn! Also lacks the gay marriage component.
See above. The issue isn’t just gay marriage, it’s about, as I have said, the desire to damage the church. Gay marriuage is just the easiest tool, and the weapon approved by Anarcho-libertarians everywhere!.
Fifth link: still no gay marriage. Poltical theater, and just who was it won that round?
Are you actually deaf?
Sixth link: So, where’s that unified gay agenda, and how are the cuckoo commenters he’s commenting on any different to the newspaper columnist who urged firing squads for NRA members?
Copy/paste the place where I typed “unified” Also, I will remember later that it’s OK with you that a member of the fourth estate wants firing squads for NRA members.
All I’m seeing here is simple political debate, and all I’m hearing from you is that your church and it’s rules should never, ever be criticized, even by persons who aren’t bound to it.
Lets see: No. All you are seeing here is what you want to see. Of course that statement is ignorant and untrue. What is actually happening is I want everyone of all religions everywhere to have the freedom to worship as they please without being under constant attack by a vanishingly small portion of the population seeking to impose their agenda on people who are doing them no harm. You don’t see it that way, because you don’t want to. Period.
Cripes, Og, it’s a big world and the Pope doesn’t run a lot of it; he only runs the Catholics in it. The gays haven’t even got a Pope, let alone any kind of unified front, as your own links clearly show. Neither group is immune to even harsh criticism, asinine street theater, etc., but you over-rad it in a way that is simply silly.
No. I see the truth, and because I believe in freedom, which you obviously do not unless it’s for people of whom you approve.
What is the full quote at the base of Jefferson’s statue in his memorial in D.C. and what is the context?
Ah, here we go. From a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush’s warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson:
“‘The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . .’
Jefferson thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
This is the society in which you live, Og. We’re even more horrible than you ever suspected, and have been so for even longer than you thought.
All of which has nothing to do with the point, at all. I am amused by the disdain you feel for me because I have “faith in a Sky God who collects souls” (wrongheaded, untrue, and ignorant) but I’m obliged to respect your hero worship of a man. A great man, perhaps, but a man. No more or less fallible than I. God, how that must horrify you, to think that Jefferson was just a man- maybe like ICK! Og!.
None of this means anything to you. I can google and find all sorts of situations where gays as individuals or groups have done harm to individuals or groups, and each one of them is fine for you. No matter how many I come up with, and I could do a couple a day and never stop, it’s all gonna be the weak and puny Gays against the Wicked and Powerful Pope to you. And as thus it will be just fine.
You have zero understanding of my position on the subject- zero. You choose to accept your fantasy of what goes on in my mind over the actual truth, which you refuse to learn because you refuse to have your assumptions challenged. Pity you have no idea how bigoted and nasty that makes you sound.
Where is the “harm” in the cited examples? Except, perhaps, in Denmark; and it’s Teh Gummit doing that and the answer is a less-power gummint.
Really? I mean, really?
“Bigoted and nasty?” You sound it, too, Og,
No. Your fantasy of who I am is. Not what I actually am, because you refuse to entertain that who i actually am is different from your personal prejudice.
and you are more blind to it;
Lie. You probably don’t know anyone more self aware than am i.
at least I know I’m no fan of religion (or dipshit street-theater politics no matter who’s doing it). You keep insisting I should treat your personal superstitions as The Special Truth, above criticism. Nope, nothing is.
That of course is only the lie you tell yourself so that I can keep on being the bad guy, and nothing more. I don’t insist a goddamned thing. YOU keep insisting I’m the looney. And you choose to remain deliberately ignorant of the facts. I don’t insist you do anything. I don’t care that you do anything. I happen to care for you a great deal, and I would rather you stop being blinded by your own bigotry and choose the truth.
Show me Jefferson’s picked pockets and broken legs, Og; you haven’t so far.
Well, you’ll have to take the tinfoil off there and ask me what you’re looking for in english, because that sentence only made sense inside your head.
Of course, the gay couple working to put a Christian baker in jail for refusing to bake a wedding cake for them is in the news now as well…..
http://mariomurilloministries.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/could-a-christian-baker-who-refused-to-make-wedding-cake-for-a-gay-couple-really-go-to-jail/
Mmmmmmmmm, feel the tolerance! It’s not like there aren’t a gazillion bakeries in Denver that would do whatever this couple wanted. Nope, there’s only one baker in all of Denver, and he needs to be PUNISHED FOR HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS!
Dave, that’s just crazy talk. You are a BIGOT!!!!!
And that’s the point. The “real” issue isn’t “anti-gay”, or “anti-immigration” (or for the most part, “anti-anything else”), it is the agenda(s) being foisted upon us, by each of these groups manipulators.
In the case of the gays, it’s the desire of said groups to seek the destruction (or at least morphing into some “acceptable form”) of any other group, agency, which refuses to capitulate to “their demands”. Even if it is at the expense of losing their own identity by conforming to what the gays (or anyone else) wants.
In short, using the gay agenda in this case, most folks could care less if any gay couple wants to get married. By all means, find some religion who allows for this in their by-laws and have at it. Just don’t, now or in the future, force my particular church and or minister to conform to your wishes…just because “it isn’t fair or nice if you don’t do so”.
Oh, and in the interest of “full disclosure”, I have been friends with and worked/played along side a number of those who were gay (of which at least two have since passed on, and the world is poorer for that).
why can’t we just treat each other as human beings, and let the agenda driven assholes of any group or stripe go piss up a rope?
Because we’re Christans, Guy, and therefore evil. Stupid, too, because we have “faith in a Sky God who collects soulsâ€.
what a wonderful (and of course typical)way of diminishing something you fear and loathe.
Og, you miss my point. We talk past one another and your claiming I think you’re stupid is entirely incorrect.
Have you made one?
Cite the *actual* *harm,* the picked pockets and broken legs. You haven’t. And, again, show me how the tiny radical fractions and outraged individuals of a tiny demographic group are any more than a minor annoyance to the vast and powerful Catholic Church, the oldest Western Christian church, still the largest and one of the oldest organized bodies anywhere.
I have. if I did the things to you that are happening to the groups and individuals you would consider them “harm”. You do not now because it is convenient for you to do so.
as for “Minor annoyance”- you know what a pearl is, right?
“still the largest and one of the oldest organized bodies anywhere. ” and man, that gripes you, doesn’t it?
Ragin’ Dave may have one (1) example of actual harm — assuming the courts don’t just throw it out and assuming the baker has not willfully violated a *law.* (Hey, you know what would prevent that? A less-powerful State, that’s what. Next best, some lobbying to change the law. How do you suppose it got proposed and enacted in the first place?)
If you weren’t stuck on “Teh Gays are peaceful creatures who never do any harm to anyone” maybe you would do a little research yourself and understand the blinders you have chosen.
What you fail to show is any kind of unified action, any actual “agenda.” Even you refer to “individuals and groups.” You know what group has a organization with a capital O? Hint: works out of a little patch of land inside Rome!
Oh! They have to have a flag, and a 501c3 and a brick and mortar building to do harm! I had NO IDEA.
Yes, Og, some of them gay people are being very, very mean to your system of belief.
I. Have. No. System. of. Belief. Have you ever read this blog?
…Which itself has an official observer at the UN, busy lobbying against decriminalizing homosexuality.
I know. Some members of my old order work there.
You know what picks pockets and breaks legs? Fining and imprisoning people for acting queer. The Catholic Church *doesn’t* do that, governments do.
PRECISELY! And that is PRECISELY WHAT THEY WILL DO TO THE FAITHFUL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHEN GAY MARRIAGE IS THE LAW OF THE LAND! I KNEW you would eventually understand.
Times are changing and your Church is just where I would expect it to be, standing in the thick of things, yelling, “STOP!”
Ah, I forget- though I have been a Catholic for 54 years and was a seminarian for six of those years and still participate in the works of the church and constantly study what it’s doing, you know more than I do, because you saw something on TV once.
This is consistent with its principles and, indeed, largely consistent with the Protestantism I was raised in and rejected. This is one of its functions in the wider world.
yep. You must know best, you are ever so much smarter and more well informed than I about religiouis matters because some moron fucked with you and you rejected G-d instead of the moron.
Society is a conversation, a kind of sloppy consensus; and mot of us would a hell of a lot rather the gays went and married each other and lived in Average Suburbia instead of sneaking off to rest stops and alleyways, sneaking around in the underbrush and creeping us out when we hafta use the potty on a long road trip. You’re not gonna get rid of them, there’s a thousand years of European history to prove it, all you can do is force ’em into the shadows where they’ll get up to who-knows-what, or let ’em out into the light where they will be under a lot of pressure to put on a pair of pants that cover their rumps and act civilized. It’s a two-way street and they can learn it just like any outsider group has had to when it got assimilated enough for a seat at the grown-up table.
For the record, old pal, I don’t think you’re a Nazi, or evil, or bad. I think you see a serious threat where none exists,
Yep. I see nothing. -sgt schulz.
Me, I have chosen to open my eyes. For the “Freedoms” of a vanishinly small portion of the population, you would throw all the faithful nder the bus, just because “You” don’t see it. Frankly, you don’t see much. You may be willing to gamble with the religious freedom of millions of people, I am not.
a conspiracy in the ill-organized acts of self-appointed agents of change. Your Church survived Roman Emperors and Martin Luther, it survived the Klan; gay people wanting civil government to let them get married is as nothing compared to that.
Yes, by all means. The patient “Survived” cholera, and diptheria, and dengue fever, let’s expose him to Bubonic plague!!
As for “diminishing something I fear and loathe:” I’m a godless heathen, Og, and everybody’s religion looks like a National Geographic special to me, a rich pagentry of colorful and/or solemn ritual, deeply meaningful to the participants but not to *me.* I’m the only viewpoint I’ve got and from where I am standing, one Sky God looks much like any other.
Hint: there is no sky god. That is a construct of yours, and it exists nowhere else but in your imagination. It is a construct you use to obliterate any appearance of the actual- you know, creator of the universe, so that you can shake your fist and deny his existence.
This is so alien to your way of thinking you’ll probably do something that looks weird to me with it; it’s not something we can have a meaningful conversation about because we do not share the same frame of reference. But it’s got nothing to do with fear, loathing or our IQ scores or personal worth.
We cannot have a meaningful conversation only for one reason. You choose not to. Period.
No Og, it’s because you want me to be something I am not, you hammer me into that mold in your mind and you are unable to see anyone else but that false image.
No, I do not. Period. I am respoinding specifically to your words.
We cannot have a meaningful conversation because I don’t accept your precepts and you do not accept mine.
Again, merely ignorance.
You are (in some way you think impossible for me to ever grasp, tiny-minded and hateful ghit that you paint me) Catholic; I am, at best, agnostic.
The religious aspect of this conversation is incidental, it could as easily be about a hot dog stand, the conversation is purely political.
…How a man can be much of a Catholic *and* an ordained minister of some other religious body without getting himself in deep doodoo with the Church is beyond me but it’s also not my worry.
Possibly there are things that you don’t understand. Certainly there are things I don’t understand. People sometimes do things they would not ordinarily do because they love other people.
You write, “I. Have. No. System. of. Belief. Have you ever read this blog?” Yes, I have. You claim to be a Catholic. For those of us who need a file-folder, that is one of many so-called “systems of belief.” Aren’t we a little old for word games?
So you have not read the blog. Words have meaning, and “belief” is a word I despise.
The kinds of things you write about being done to Christians? They’re done to me, too; Tam and are two women “living together” (under the same roof, anyway) and wasn’t that the hot topicc to speculate over, snigger about and condemn on the gun boards? Still is from time to time, along with the occasional poison-pen e-mail and nasty comment at gun shows. I guess I could yell and holler about it but I have better things to do that swat gnats. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
That’s the standard. Ask the gays, who were ready prey for years to people who did just that. They’re still easy meat for criminals.
(And your buddy who thinks we should go with Majority Rules? Pity he can’t remember when a majority of Hoosiers were in the Klan. Stinking creeps in their thousands marched right up Meridian Street with hardly a voice raised to counter ’em. Does he remember the poll the libs cited recently, showing majorities in favor of mandatory universal background checks and assault weapons bans? We do not live in a democracy, at least not yet. I fear the day we do and so should he.)
The man who tries picking *my* pocket or breaking *my* leg? He may succeed, but he’ll know he has been in a fight.
It’s a big world and *nobody* is running it except the people who show up (and them, not as much as they think). Fuming at one another on blogs does not count as “showing up.”
None of this is ever about “Talking past one another. I am speakling directly at you. You are simply running out of the way so the words cannot reach you.
BTW, it’s your blog but editing comments by others is generally taken to be rude. If you don’t like what I write, delete it all.
If I “Didn’t like” what you wrote, I would cragerize it. I am trying to have a conversation but your every post wanders in and out of severla handsful of topics, and the only way to respond is to do so on a line by line basis. THis is not intended to be rude or to incense you, it is to specifially respond intelligently to your every statement. Should you dislike this, then limit your comments to one statement per and I will respond one statement per.
Guy, I don’t know, why *can’t* we all just treat one another as individuals? *I* don’t keep bringing up The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zi- er, I mean, The Gay Agenda.
Seriously, friends? You still haven’t convinced me we didn’t put men on the Moon but I’m weakening on the consipiracy to kill Kennedy. One of them, at least.
Roberta: I have specifically cited an example of a government forcing a church to perform same sex marriages. Did you read that?
Yeah. It’s wrong. I’ve said it’s wrong, but you didn’t want to see it.
Of course that is a lie. Here’s what you said. “First one is in Denmark: no First Amendment. You been a Dane long?” you did not say it was wrong.
I have been a human all my life. And what is important to humans everywhere is important to me. And clearly, the things that happen there can happen here. But I’m not a Dane. Are you?
let me repeat: I am a human.
It’s up to them to fix it. (The U.S. is the only country where I have a voice in politic
It is still only an example of the problem with powerful governments.
Right. So let’s give them more power, the power to decide who gets to marry who and when. What happened to Little Miss Limited Government?
Today it’s The Gays, tomorrow it’s commies or facsists or Greens. How can you not see this?
See what? Maybe I don’t have my tinfoil hat on tight enough.
Me, I figure Europe has been, is and will always be a pestilential cesspit. My ancestors left. They were smart.
Og, we are *done.* You’ve convinced me that I don’t ever want you around me again and that I should not be around you. I’m sure you are still a fun guy and nice as sugar pie but there’s too much of what feels like crazy to me. My history is such that I avoid it whenever possible. Goodbye.
Would that the asshole or assholes responsible for diddling you or whatever traumatic episode turned you into what you are today were atheists; perhaps you might have rejected athiesm instead. Fact is, all this whistling past the graveyard is pretty obvious. Don’t fret, the Creator always welcomes wanderers. As for bringing the crazy, well, I brought citations to the discussion, you simply brought ‘You’re wrong because I say so”. yep, I’m the crazy one.
One last thing — I know you dislike “belief.” Get over it, or don’t. It’s a word.
When you are the supreme ruler of the universe, try then to tell me what to get over and see what I say to you. Meantime, I’ll “get over” what I want, and when I want, as always.
It’s best to use your terms of art only with the other artists.
Make sure the tinfoil is shiny side in.
Attorneys learn this. “System of belief” is a widely-used and widely-understood phrase.
Oddly enough, my understanding of the phrase is precisely the same as yours. It isn’t the word i have an issue with, it’s the concept. Something I would not expect you to understand, because your entire world is based on beliefs. Most of which are your own constructs. I hate “belief” because “belief” engenders the kind of irrational hatred you are filled with for anyone who disagrees with you.
–See what I meant about the crazy? Having your own personal special definitions is a symptom.
Sure. A symptom of what? Since I don’t have a definition of belief that is any different than anyone else’s, I’ll probably never know. But if you actually read and understood, you’d be able to figure that out.