There are some conversations that can only be had in person.
Or, at worst, via IM; some time ago I had a conversation with someone unfamiliar with the Church about the church’s leadership- he, like a lot of people, were under the impression that we get to choose our leaders- we do not.
The church hierarchy is like royalty- it isn’t genetic, but it is appointed and “Earned”. You can “Earn” a priesthood, but not a lot who “Earn” it deserve it. And the corruption in the church, right now, is at a high not seen since the days of selling indulgences- though now it’s bad in whole new ways.
The Pope’s new statement about celibacy of priests is an example of this. there are a bunch of people who suffer from the delusion that “married priests would be less likely to molest children”. This could not be further from the truth. A predator naturally puts himself in a situation where prey exists, and allowing him to be married changes nothing except gives him a cover identity. Plenty of married men molest children, sometimes their own. This is not about that.
Celibacy in the priesthood is not about that. The priesthood is a bloody difficult gig, and anyone who thinks otherewise ought to try to live that life for about a week. Most I know would be hard pressed to last a week
A diocesan priest has a family, and they can number in the thousands. he is responsible for all their well being, and it is a job that is emotionally draining, financially difficult, and doesn’t involve getting a good nights sleep very often.
Certainly there are plenty who do not do that job well, that is the way of the world. I cannot imagine a man trying to be a priest and also a husband and father, you cannot do both jobs properly, you simply cannot.
if you want proof that the Church leadership is disconnected from the real world, you only need look at this. And if you’re a praying person, pray. Pray that the Creator judges us not as we deserve, but with infinite mercy.
20 comments Og | Uncategorized
Just a question (not trolling):
I’m not a Catholic, nor do I like most of what Pope Francis has said or done, but isn’t his proposal nothing more than what the Orthodox allow in the priesthood (which arguably, is the least feminized church today)? [for the record, I’m not Orthodox either].
Someday, Og, we need to sit at a simple table facing each other, and you tell me why you left that path. It seems so obvious that you wuld have been one of the better ones. As a Chaplain, you could easily have kept a battalion going, pretty much by yourself…
Dog, that’s high praise, and someday, I would indeed like to have that conversation.
Shadow: I’m not a big fan of pope Francis, or what he’s doing either; I AM a big fan of the orthodox because they cleave hard to tradition, and that isn’t a bad thing. Their issue is more about dogma than the way they personally live, and I cannot find it in my heart to condemn a single thing they do- so far.
Well, if Jesus was right, the creator will not judge us by our deeds but through the filter of his son. Not to start any theological wars.
I think if you are in the care giver arena you are hard put to have enough emotional resources to give to what you do as well as who you are.
That being said I would not tell anyone they could not do it. I cannot, but that does not mean some one else will fail in the task.
While many do fail, not all of them fail.
I am helping with a recovery ministry right now and that is an eye opening experience, to say the least.
You do good, Og. Even though you judge yourself harshly.
As I think I’ve mentioned before, I’m Anglican (I refuse to self-identify as Episcopalian because of the way that church has gone over the last couple decades). I’ve belong to three very traditional parishes over the last 20 years, and have been close to all three of the priests. All of them were married men. I wonder if this is the reason Anglican churches tend to have fewer members than Roman Catholic. Both the buildings and congregations seem to be much smaller, few have more than a couple hundred members (and the larger ones will often have multiple priests).
I considered going that route too, but then married a woman who goes to a different church, so set my sail in that direction instead.
A couple of points.
1. No, removing celibacy doesn’t make pedo’s less likely to molest children. But it makes those who want to have sex with children compete for the job of priest with those who want to raise children. Don’t you think that part of the reason there are so many is because the Catholic church has to take what is available because most men won’t accept the celibacy requirement?
Giraffe: I’m not convinced that the rate of pedophilia among Roman Catholic priests is higher than that among the general population of men. I think it’s been mostly the media attention focused on the priesthood. Just like the number of mass-murders isn’t higher now that it was before, we just hear about it more widely.
2. And the corruption in the church, right now, is at a high not seen since the days of selling indulgences- though now it’s bad in whole new ways.
I find that strange. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church? Do you feel like if the one true church is corrupt you are sorta orphaned?
I’m not trying to be a disrespectful. I see some Catholics complain about their church and it is a little wierd. It is right to complain about corruption, but others complain about the Church’s position on things, and I see no room for that when the church has the position of authority that it does in the Catholic view of things.
Anyway, I’m protestant and we have enough problems of our own.
I don’t even want to THINK about what I deserve. I, too, hope for His grace and mercy when the time comes, because otherwise I’m screwed.
Giraffe: As I have tried to explain, the church is not the buildings, the church is not the priests, the church is not the bishop or the pope or the nuns or the clergy in any of it’s iterations; the church consists solely of the faithful. And “belief” in anything I see as the biggest part of the problem.
Ed: You and me both, brudda.
Giraffe: I’m not convinced that the rate of pedophilia among Roman Catholic priests is higher than that among the general population of men.
I certainly have nothing to prove otherwise.
My feeling is that it is higher, for the reason OG stated. The postition is attractive to them, because of the power it brings. And also for the reason I stated, the church has fewer candidates to choose from.
I also believe the media is blowing it out of proportion. Yet there are people around here that claim priests did things to them. I don’t think it is a few isolated incidents.
the church consists solely of the faithful.
I agree with that.
And “belief†in anything I see as the biggest part of the problem.
If I understand you correctly, I agree with that too.
Its very fashionable to have been molested by a priest. It confers instant victim hood and gains you acceptance by all the kool kids who are anxious to join you in destroying those evil catholics.
“I’m not convinced that the rate of pedophilia among Roman Catholic priests is higher than that among the general population of men.”
Statistically, you are correct. The media loves to use priests as a club against the faithful, so most of the other shit doesn’t get reported.
Earl Bradly, the reputed worst child molester in history, was a pediatrician, and if memory serves, a Pentecostal. Don’t quote me on that. You don’t hear much about him. if he was a catholic priest, we’d nevr STOP hearing about him.
If Brian Singer was a Catholic priest instead of a Hollywood movie director, you sure as shooting would be hearing more about him in the news.
Same with all the teachers who have been molesting kids for decades under the protection of their various unions.
The reason you hear so much about Catholics and child abuse is because the people who want to tear down the Church will use anything they can in order to do so.
Saint Og of the Blogs.
I like it. It has a ring to it.
Of course, not being Catholic, I’m not gonna kiss that ring, but I’ll shake the hand whut wears it.
Good ministry you’ve got here, Og. Whether you quite realize it or not, you’re serving a flock. And doing so far, far more honestly and to good effect, than many a frocked fake.
Pass the plate, and I’ll drop a box o’ 50 rounds of .22 lr.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
lol. Jim, you don’t even want to imagine the skeletons in my closet. The day I’m a candidate for sainthood, the four horsemen will start pulling plows.
Dave: You must wear the same kind of tinfoil hat I have, because that is the same kind of nutjobbery I spout, for which I’m called “Crazy” and “Unbalanced”. Of course, I’m called crazy and unbalanced by people who have to have their hands held to go to the bathroom in a strange place, so I’m not usually devastated by the news. Welcome to the club.
I doubt that people pushing for a married clergy have thought out even a fraction of the issue. Let’s just look at restoring what was before 1000, a system like the East. First, it’s not whether priests can marry (they can’t after ordination in the East or West), it’s whether married men can become priests. Once you’re ordained, if your wife dies or runs off tomorrow morning, that’s all folks. No remarriage.
From what I know of the Orthodox (mostly the Serbs and Russians), the Matushka (Priest’s Wife) is a station and job in the parish that she must fulfill. The way our society is set up today, where the wife will stay with the husband until all the kids she wants are born, then she jettisons him for the single life again since he has to pay child support whether married or divorced (sorry, it’s what I see all around me), I don’t know if in the 2014 West we’ll find enough men AND women who together are up to the demands of marriage for life come what may, and holding down a parish together. The wife must “down with the program” as much as the husband is if he plans to attend monastery.
And get used to no more daily Mass. Eastern priests only have Divine Liturgy on Sunday since they have to be continent (abstain from sex) for a time (a day?) before the service. Again, this requires teamwork and commitment from the spouses seldom seen in secular life.
Finally, chances are it’ll just be diocesan priests open to married clergy, while religious orders (Franciscans, Dominicans, etc.) most likely would remain celibate since a diocesan can only be moved around a bishop’s realm, while a Franciscan can get sent anywhere on Earth, and often. Since the East doesn’t have the Orders structure that the West has, that’d be quite a thing to watch play out.
I know a number of men who’d make great priests, but they needed family and children to be complete, and that knocked them out of consideration. I also know a number of Godly, decent, strong women who could carry the weight of Matushka. But the overlap of those two circles of the Venn diagram I imagine to be small. In fact, I only know one Catholic couple where I think the husband and wife would do it well, together.
One.
Og,
I’d like to sit in on that session between you and Dog, just so I can throw in my two cents on why I abandoned plans to study for the rabbinate.
I suspect we’ll find a lot of parallels.
I would bet you are correct.